Pellet weight and 10m match springers?

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

I notice that match pellets for pistols tend to hover in the 7 grain sort of area, but for rifles in the 8 grain area.

I know most people use pcps these days and don't need to worry about pellet weight, but I wondered what the general view on pellet weight for springers was.

I've got an FWB300s, Original 75 and a Walther LGV, and I've been using RWS R10 pellets in them. They're a little bit over 8 grns.

Would putting lighter pellets like Hobbies or JSB RS through these rifles be problematic over the long term? Would there be any possibility of damage on spring piston guns - to the springs or seals?

I also have a FWB80 pistol in which I also use R10 pellets - the lighter ones. Could putting heavier pellets in it create problems for the spring or piston seal?

I would be grateful for your advice.

[Turnup]

Unless you are well into FAC power levels, your guns will some to no harm from using either heavy or light pellets.

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

Thanks for the reply.

[RobinC]

Arthur
You will find many posts on here about pellets, weights, sizes etc, the different weights will do your old springers no harm, due to barrel length generally longer on rifles (not so much with the new breed of PCP's) and slightly higher pressure the 8.2 gns work better in a rifle and the 7 gns in a pistol.

Then you have the variance with sizes, and this has been done to death on many posts (spend a happy day finding them!), shooting with a classic, rifle just stick to good quality rifle weigh pellets (8.2 gns)

Some of the cheaper pellets can foul up barrels, my advice is buy good quality, the difference in a tin is £5 at the most from the cheapest to the best for 500, the price difference is decimals of pennies per shot, you can not go wrong with RWS Meisterklugeln 8.2gn 4.50 mm, for a classic, or RWS R10 for a modern match PCP rifle.

My wife who takes her shooting very seriously uses RWS R10 8.2gns 4.49's in her Walther LG400, when she ran out recently she used some Meisterklugeln we had been given and shot her personal best so not a lot wrong with them.

Have Fun,

Robin

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

Thanks Robin.

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

Just been chronoing my Diana 75 and Walther LGV target, and they don't make acceptabe velocity with 8.2 grain pellets.

7 grain pellets work much better - a hundred feet per second better.

I know springers often prefer lighter pellets, but this seems rather strange.

What is an acceptable velocity for a 10m spring piston rifle, do you think?

[PhatMan]

Arthur,

I have the following for my rifles, using JSB Match Green (7.32gr. weighed) and JSB Match Orange (8.02 gr. weighed) - Skan Chrono, average of ten (10) shots (in feet per second):

	JSB Green (7.32 gr.)	JSB Orange (8.02 gr.)
Original 75	651.07	606.98
Feinwerkbau 300	657.71	594.51
Walther LG55	655.70	583.78
Webley & Scott Mk3 Supertarget	641.08	610.13
Walther LG90	613.35	614.00

I have got some pistol velocities somewhere - I will see if I can dig them out (they are for Diana Model 10, Feinwerkbau 65, Original 6M, Original 6 (one piece plastic grips), Baikal MP46M, Diana 5G & 1948 Original Model 5).

Have fun

Best regards

Russ

[PhatMan]

Arthur,

Velocities for some of my pistols (in feet per second) :

	RWS Meisterkugeln 6.97 gr.	RWS Meisterkugeln 8.27 gr.	JSB Green (7.32gr.)	JSB Orange (8.02 gr.)	JSB Blue (8.28 gr.)
Diana Model 10	440.43	363.28	433.16	401.11	396.68
Feinwerkbau 65	482.28	397.20	462.48	N/A	436.48
Baikal MP-46M	N/A	N/A	458.14	N/A	N/A

Have fun

Best regards

Russ

[RobinC]

Arthur

If you are very perceptive you will be able to see me rolling my eyes and muttering, Oh dear, hear we go again!!

This obsession with muzzle velocities is a modern thing that has come from plinkers and non precision target shooters, I agree it is sometimes useful to confirm that some thing is wrong such as seals gone, or going, or air leaks, and that with a target rifle is all, BUT with a target rifle (or pistol) the important factor is accuracy and consistency! Speed is generally irrelevant.

I have a serious involvement with precision 10 mt Rifle target shooting, and I don't even have a chrono, and don't need one. On the very rare occasions when its not been obvious but I've suspected a rifle fault then I use our club one to test on. Any useful testing is done on accuracy and group size, and with a 10 mt rifle that group size should be, or near enough be, one 4.50 mm hole, that is the test of a 10 mt rifle. AND, just to further muddy the water, most groups are more dependent on the ability of the tester to hold, and aim to perfection, a rare skill, rather than the rifle pellet combination, Accurate bench testing is not as easy as people think.

One of our modern Rifles, a Walther LG400 special was tested at MEC in Dortmund, by one of the top men in the world, it was tested on a professional bench rest, using a Scatt system to perfect the aim, and measured on an electronic target to 0.001 of a mm, it shot a perfect non group one hole 10 shot string, and it did not even go near a chrono, perhaps it may have done if it had not been so good.

Unless there is a fault or a suspicion of a fault just concentrate on accuracy and I believe that the 8.2gn pellet will produce better results in a rifle, old or modern, the barrel length and rifle twist is designed for them. The means of producing the air, a spring or PCP makes diddly squat difference as long as its consistent by design and condition, but the integrity and condition of the rifle system makes a lot of difference, particularly to consistency, and that is a very much greater variable than pellets. The garden enthusiast weighs them, but I load 6mmBR ammo for top level 300 mt shooting, I have the best electronic scale available (a jewellers one) for that, and I weigh every aspect to the nth degree, but I don't bother weighing air pellets, and neither do the top world level folks, they just use good quality ones and pick them out of a tin! It makes no difference they are too small to have a significant variance.

I do have classics, I'm not a collector, although Bob (Zooma) tells me I am, I just have the guns we bought to use going through the years and never sold them when we updated, so I have bit of history to test against, the factory test target of my Walther LGV (shot at the Cosford NARPA Championships in 1972!) has as tight a factory test card as my current modern Walther LG400!!!! The LGV has just been repaired by Wonky Donky, and he tested it at 530 fps, but when returned we tested it for accuracy, it was shot with Meisterklugeln 8.3, 4.50mm (only because I had a few left), with RWS R10 8.3, 4.49mm, and then with she who must be obeyed's new preference, Qia Yuan 8.3gn, 4.49mm, it was accurate with all.

The last PCP we chrono tested was a FWB P700 that was accurate but producing "strange" holes, the velocities were inconsistent, can't remember by how much, after the regulator and system was cleaned it shot sharp holes and chron'd around 570 fps, was very accurate and consistent.

If your rifles are accurate, shoot them and enjoy them, use good quality pellets, if they are not accurate (and its not you!) check or replace the spring, check or replace the piston and breach seals, then shoot and enjoy them with no excuses.

Have Fun
Good shooting

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

Thanks Russ and Robin. I really appreciate your taking the time to address my post.

Robin I understand entirely what you are saying. However Russ has given figures for his rifles which show that my concerns are probably justified; certainly for my LGV which looks like it needs a new spring and/or seals - with 8.2 grain pellets it is only putting out 250fps, and with RWS Hobby, 400 fps. This did not surprise me. It is an old gun and probably hasn't been serviced for yonks.

What did however surprise me was the performance of my Diana 75. This is a very nice gun in excellent overall condition, and has recently been rebuilt by a well respected gunsmith. With 8.2 grain it is managing only 400 fps, and with Hobby 500 fps. Maybe velocity will increase over time as the gun is shot in.

I take your point about accuracy over velocity, Robin, but this seems very poor. I would expect even a springer to manage between 500 -600 fps with 8 grain pellets.

[RobinC]

Arthur

Yes at those velocities the Walther is definitely not a well gun! And possibly also the Original, I'd recommend Wonky Donkey, he has just rebuilt our LGV which has sat in our cabinet for possibly 30 years, and the seal had disintegrated, and he also found the spring broken. When the seal goes the spring is at risk as it does not have any damping so I probably broke the spring trying the rifle with a duff seal.

He mods and fits a modern seal, and he has spring kits.

I'd suggest sending them both to him, If I can ever find my wife's old Original 75 it will be off to him, just got to find it first!

Have fun,
Best regards

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

I know it's slightly off the point, but in a way it's back to the original question about velocity and consistency.

I've just put ten more shots through one of my FWB 80s - the inconsistent one.

It's averaging 450 with one high of 475 and one low of 435. All the other shots were close to 450. Not as inconsistent as the last time I tested it.

There was a slight burning smell, but it was a dry sort of smell. I know these things run dry. Could that be a sign of some component coming to the end of its life?

This gun is cosmetically in excellent shape and appears not to have been used much for years, although the seals are not the original ones. It's been sitting in its box, completely unused for the last three or four months.

Could the slightly worrying smell and inconsistency be a result of this? I will shoot it more over the next few days and see what happens.

If necessary, Robin, I'll follow your advice re. the LGV.

[RobinC]

Sounds like your FWB 80 has some metal "picked up".

Back in the day our 65's and 80's never got worn out as though we did a lot of shooting the first thing we did on arriving at an International was to hand the gun to the resident FWB factory service who always attended, they often changed everything as a matter of course, springs, seals, sometimes trigger units, and this might happen several times a year, all free of charge, good old days!

I bet the contents of their waste bins would fetch a fortune now!
Have Fun
Robin

[zooma]

Sounds like your FWB 80 has some metal "picked up".

Back in the day our 65's and 80's never got worn out as though we did a lot of shooting the first thing we did on arriving at an International was to hand the gun to the resident FWB factory service who always attended, they often changed everything as a matter of course, springs, seals, sometimes trigger units, and this might happen several times a year, all free of charge, good old days!

I bet the contents of their waste bins would fetch a fortune now!
Have Fun
Robin

That is equally very interesting and very disturbing - all at the same time !