Whats' the REAL reason

[tacfoley]

that nobody shoots deer-sized animals here in UK with a muzzle-loader here in UK?

After a chat with my cousin over the other side of the water, I couldn't give him an answer, except to say that I'd never heard it happening. So, I asked this question of a FEO - NOT a local BTW - and got a sharp intake of breath and a degree of teeth-sucking. It seems that 300gr R.E.A.L. bullet at 1750fps isn't considered enough gun.

Excuse me? That's 2040 ft lbs right there.

Even the old Snider - shooting a 535gr lead Minié bullet, stomps up to the plate with 2673 ft lbs.

Anybody else ever thought about it?

tac

[harvey_s]

Why would you want to...

I could drive to work in a Model T - but my modern vehicle is far more efficient and appropriate for the species inside.

[tacfoley]

Why would you want to...

I could drive to work in a Model T - but my modern vehicle is far more efficient and appropriate for the species inside.

Sigh. I guess you don't get it.

It's not WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it.

I'm wasting time trying to explain to you.

tac

[lilguy43uk]

If I had the opportunity.

[magicesperanto]

I guess that, given the reaction of your FEO, shooters don't like to risk having a refusal on their record.

[loiner1965]

Broadly speaking tac the yank shooters have more say what they can and cannot do due to their gun culture. Over hear we do as we are told by those above.
Interesting thread though

[harvey_s]

Sigh. I guess you don't get it.

It's not WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it.

I'm wasting time trying to explain to you.

tac

I think I understand why you might want to...but surely common sense and respect tells you that it's probably better not to?
A spear or a bow will do the same job, but everyone's moved on since then...

[tacfoley]

My .45-70 can shoot either a stiff BP load and a 300 or 405gr bullet out to 1200 yards at targets, with a reasonable expectation of connecting with them and making a good score - it does, however, require more SKILL than pointing a wonder-calibre high-tech modern rifle. Using a nitro load it can shoot a JSP that can take any animal in USA or Canada, up to and including 1500 pound moose. I'll let YOU figure out the muzzle energy of either of those two bullets travelling at around 2000 fps.

FYI the Stoney Point trials in the late 1870s, using the then-issue government cartridge, showed an effectively penetrative range exceeding 3500 yards. Things have moved on since the days of shooting a lead lump in front of a 70gr load of BP.

And putting the shorter range telescopic sight on it makes close-in large game pretty easy - whitetail at 150 - 200 yards.

The POINT of shooting an older gun is the CHALLENGE and SPORTSMANSHIP and HUNTING SKILLS required to get close enough to do it humanely, although from what I've seen on British Field Sports channel there is little or no tracking going on - most 'hunters' seem to be 'waiters' sitting in trees or lurking in hides until the animal happens to wander past them. Shooting a little creature like a CWD or muntjac in that fashion and crowing over it, after decking it with a high velocity little rifle at fifty yards is nothing special.

Your modern-day car analogy holds no water with me - I 'spose you'd be happier driving a Mondeo than a Deusenberg - your choice.

Anyhow, I'm truly sorry to have started the thread in the first place, since you either know what I'm talking about, or you don't.

Sadly, you don't.

'bye.

tac

[harvey_s]

I do understand your point of view and perhaps for you - it's a completely viable option.

However, the problem I see is making a blanket rule that then allows those without the necessary skillset to have a 'play' with live quarry - an option which I fear will be less than sporting.

[airgunnut]

that nobody shoots deer-sized animals here in UK with a muzzle-loader here in UK?

After a chat with my cousin over the other side of the water, I couldn't give him an answer, except to say that I'd never heard it happening. So, I asked this question of a FEO - NOT a local BTW - and got a sharp intake of breath and a degree of teeth-sucking. It seems that 300gr R.E.A.L. bullet at 1750fps isn't considered enough gun.

Excuse me? That's 2040 ft lbs right there.

Even the old Snider - shooting a 535gr lead Minié bullet, stomps up to the plate with 2673 ft lbs.

Anybody else ever thought about it?

tac

I think it's because it might be considered inhumane, (no second shot or long reloading time)

[MikB]

Even the old Snider - shooting a 535gr lead Minié bullet, stomps up to the plate with 2673 ft lbs.

tac

Well, excuse me, but Snidey will actually only do about 1856 fpe at its standard 1250 fps - less with the original milspec 480 gn bullet.

Still should be enough to meet legal requirements - unless these have changed.

However, I still don't understand why you'd use something inferior to a modern scoped hunting rifle, with no prospect of a quick followup shot if you fluff it.

[tacfoley]

Well, excuse me, but Snidey will actually only do about 1856 fpe at its standard 1250 fps - less with the original milspec 480 gn bullet.

Still should be enough to meet legal requirements - unless these have changed.

However, I still don't understand why you'd use something inferior to a modern scoped hunting rifle, with no prospect of a quick followup shot if you fluff it.

You are correct, 1856 fpe it is. That proves to me is that some folks DO read what I post.

However, I didn't say that I was going to use a Snider, even though I DO have two of 'em. My initial question was about the .45-70 Govt, a cartridge that can be shot from a modern multi-round under-lever rifle or carbine.

Your not understanding is not my problem. I've tried to explain, obviously with little success, that back in the real world, outside the UK, many hunters understand the challenge of using a single-shot firearm and the need for exact shot placement with the one shot you have, taken at realistic ranges compatible with the arm that you are shooting. Incidentally, there is not a single animal outside a safari park in this country that stand up after connecting with a Snider bullet, or any other Minié, Pritchett or similar bullet, at 100 yards. Back in the country that seems to offend some people here, a pal of mine took down a 1700 pound American Bison with one shot of his .451 Whitworth rifle, shooting his own 600gr swaged bullet.

In Canada and the US there is a short BP season for game and most BP rifles used are single shot. No doubt the bunny-huggers and bambi-fondlers are running around with their hair on fire at the very thought of it happening here, but they can calm down - it never will.

Having gotten my answers, I'm done here.

Thanks to those who provided me with the answers I sought.

tac

[harvey_s]

My initial question was about the .45-70 Govt, a cartridge that can be shot from a modern multi-round under-lever rifle or carbine.

Unless you can load this cartridge via the muzzle, this wasn't your initial question at all and perhaps why people are not understanding you.

[bfhb]

I understood tac very well from the start.

Unfortunately far too many shooters want things easy peasy with not much effort.

Mark

[Flashinthepan]

Hi tac

I was looking down the forum's threads and read you question, one which I have also mused over - could I use a plastic sabot with a soft tip bullet in a ml say a Thompsom Centre Firestorm Flintlock as they give all the info and get a Roe or Fallow deer.

By chance I came across this article http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uplo...te/6dpmag9.pdf
in Pedersoli's magazine while drooling and dreaming over some flintlocks on his site.
In case I have managed to cockup the link its Pedesoli site - magazine archive Black powder No1 magazine 9th issue 06/11/2012 article In focus Black powder hunting in Europe.

UK bit

"In Great Britain it is possible to hunt with muzzleloaders. For muntjac and Chinese
water deer only, the rifle must have a minimum caliber of not less than .220 inches
and muzzle energy of not less than 1 000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less
than 50 grains may be used. For all deer of any species a minimum caliber of .240 and
minimum muzzle energy of 1 ,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement. The hunter
must also put the bullets into 1 00 mm group at 1 00 m to meet all requirements"

How correct it is I couldn't say

hope it was of interest
Flash