Whats' the REAL reason

[harvey_s]

Sigh. I guess you don't get it.

It's not WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it.

I'm wasting time trying to explain to you.

tac

I think I understand why you might want to...but surely common sense and respect tells you that it's probably better not to?
A spear or a bow will do the same job, but everyone's moved on since then...

[tacfoley]

My .45-70 can shoot either a stiff BP load and a 300 or 405gr bullet out to 1200 yards at targets, with a reasonable expectation of connecting with them and making a good score - it does, however, require more SKILL than pointing a wonder-calibre high-tech modern rifle. Using a nitro load it can shoot a JSP that can take any animal in USA or Canada, up to and including 1500 pound moose. I'll let YOU figure out the muzzle energy of either of those two bullets travelling at around 2000 fps.

FYI the Stoney Point trials in the late 1870s, using the then-issue government cartridge, showed an effectively penetrative range exceeding 3500 yards. Things have moved on since the days of shooting a lead lump in front of a 70gr load of BP.

And putting the shorter range telescopic sight on it makes close-in large game pretty easy - whitetail at 150 - 200 yards.

The POINT of shooting an older gun is the CHALLENGE and SPORTSMANSHIP and HUNTING SKILLS required to get close enough to do it humanely, although from what I've seen on British Field Sports channel there is little or no tracking going on - most 'hunters' seem to be 'waiters' sitting in trees or lurking in hides until the animal happens to wander past them. Shooting a little creature like a CWD or muntjac in that fashion and crowing over it, after decking it with a high velocity little rifle at fifty yards is nothing special.

Your modern-day car analogy holds no water with me - I 'spose you'd be happier driving a Mondeo than a Deusenberg - your choice.

Anyhow, I'm truly sorry to have started the thread in the first place, since you either know what I'm talking about, or you don't.

Sadly, you don't.

'bye.

tac

[harvey_s]

I do understand your point of view and perhaps for you - it's a completely viable option.

However, the problem I see is making a blanket rule that then allows those without the necessary skillset to have a 'play' with live quarry - an option which I fear will be less than sporting.

[thisisdonald]

my grampa, sadly now deceased from Waco texas was an avid hunter. I remember going over there and getting shots of rifles and shotguns probably from the age of about 6 or 7..
anyway.. as he progressed through life, he left the big bolt and lever actions in favour of BP rifles, and then in later years dropped even these for a bow and arrow.
I like to think that he did this out of respect and his knowledge of whitetail deer, rather than just taking up a new hobby.

like tac inferred, knowing your quarry is probably the most important aspect of hunting and respecting its place in the circle of life comes a close second. I dont hunt, but if I did, I would prefer a sub 12 air rifle for small game, and would prefer to use a bow for larger game.. unfortunately, theres nobody going to pass these skills on to me, and without that, I think it could take a lifetime to learn.

to comment on the original post, I dont know for sure why BP isnt allowed for taking game, but I assume its along the lines of why bows arent allowed for game in the UK - politically correct and intellectually challenged people have at some point decided for the rest of us that its not clinical enough or it violates the animals rights.... I would say to these people that they have their ancestors to thank for them standing where they are today, and that without a degree of barbarism, we will lose what it means to be part of the circle of life

[harvey_s]

I would argue that today and in this country, this is a view which is incompatible with keeping our sport safe for the future from the same politically correct and intellectually challenged people that you refer to.

Only a fool wouldn't recognise the difference between limp-wristed protestation on an internet forum and the damage that could be done by one mis-placed large calibre round in hands of a 'barbarian'.

[thisisdonald]

that was a very weak veiled attempt at ridiculing me Harvey.. in retort, I would say that you are one of those people more than willing to accept changes to our 'sport' and will gladly parrot the reasons given for the changes with no thought of your own.
If by 'keeping our sport safe for the future' means accepting small changes this year to next in the slow erosion of our rights, then you are at the top of your game.
My comment wasnt a limp wristed protestation, it is merely my thoughts in a conversation between people on a shooting forum. And as for recognising the difference between my comments and a misplaced shot... I have no idea what that even means, it doesnt make sense. Im sure youll tell me though

[harvey_s]

that was a very weak veiled attempt at ridiculing me Harvey.. in retort, I would say that you are one of those people more than willing to accept changes to our 'sport' and will gladly parrot the reasons given for the changes with no thought of your own.
If by 'keeping our sport safe for the future' means accepting small changes this year to next in the slow erosion of our rights, then you are at the top of your game.
My comment wasnt a limp wristed protestation, it is merely my thoughts in a conversation between people on a shooting forum. And as for recognising the difference between my comments and a misplaced shot... I have no idea what that even means, it doesnt make sense. Im sure youll tell me though

I wasn't ridiculing you and the thoughts are most definitely are my own - maybe its just me, but you seem a bit over-sensitive as I'm not seeing what you're reading into this...

The comment about 'limp-wristed protestation' wasn't a personal attack, rather an an attempt to describe the forum discussion per se as ineffectual, no personal reference here was actually intended and the reference to a mis-placed shot doing more damage than this discussion seems rather too obvious to explain TBH.

[tacfoley]

...and yet deer stalkers here in UK happily use .338LM, .300WM, .308Win, 7mmRM and so on for native deer - all of which could be taken with a 6.5x55 from 1895...

The thread has lost its way now, I think. My nitro-loaded 300gr .45-70 at 150 yards is as good as any of the above.

tac

[kennyc]

...and yet deer stalkers here in UK happily use .338LM, .300WM, .308Win, 7mmRM and so on for native deer - all of which could be taken with a 6.5x55 from 1895...

The thread has lost its way now, I think. My nitro-loaded 300gr .45-70 at 150 yards is as good as any of the above.

tac

does it make minimum velocity and ME? if so then is there anything to say you can't use it? the only downside to muzzle loaders in the UK I can see (if they meet the requirements of MV &ME) is the lack of availability of a second shot if needed ? or do they still make muzzle loading double rifles ?

[WarrenC]

Personally think the reason is uk guidance and the words "expanding for humain dispatch" speed of Bullet etc, no point arguing they do it in America as you could say the pugmies used blow pipes for hogs lol.

Hopefully I get a nicer response than the first guy 😂

[walnutfarmmick]

I found this old thread when I was looking for something else and wondered what stops anyone bowhunting deer? I attended the postmortem of a brown bear in Canada a few years ago. I'm not into baiting for prey which was the case here but that bear was hit fair and square and managed less than 10 yards before falling dead. The broadhead arrow had hit its aorta and that was it.

ATB, Mick

[Glevum]

The law stops you hunting with bows, crossbows or explosives!! in the uk.

https://www.gov.uk/hunting/overview

[Preacher]

I have 45-75 1876 Winchester that I shoot at Bisley with Blackpowder, but I have started to move to nitro as its a lot cleaner