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Thread: Whats' the REAL reason

  1. #1
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    Whats' the REAL reason

    that nobody shoots deer-sized animals here in UK with a muzzle-loader here in UK?

    After a chat with my cousin over the other side of the water, I couldn't give him an answer, except to say that I'd never heard it happening. So, I asked this question of a FEO - NOT a local BTW - and got a sharp intake of breath and a degree of teeth-sucking. It seems that 300gr R.E.A.L. bullet at 1750fps isn't considered enough gun.

    Excuse me? That's 2040 ft lbs right there.

    Even the old Snider - shooting a 535gr lead Minié bullet, stomps up to the plate with 2673 ft lbs.

    Anybody else ever thought about it?

    tac

  2. #2
    harvey_s's Avatar
    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
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    Why would you want to...

    I could drive to work in a Model T - but my modern vehicle is far more efficient and appropriate for the species inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harvey_s View Post
    Why would you want to...

    I could drive to work in a Model T - but my modern vehicle is far more efficient and appropriate for the species inside.
    Sigh. I guess you don't get it.

    It's not WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it.

    I'm wasting time trying to explain to you.

    tac

  4. #4
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    I would

    If I had the opportunity.
    The biggest problem facing this country today is not the terrorist. It's the politician.

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  5. #5
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    I guess that, given the reaction of your FEO, shooters don't like to risk having a refusal on their record.

  6. #6
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    Broadly speaking tac the yank shooters have more say what they can and cannot do due to their gun culture. Over hear we do as we are told by those above.
    Interesting thread though

  7. #7
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    Cos plod won't condition them for it. Cos plod like being bloody awkward. I did find myself wondering whether the 'farmer's defence' would apply to walloping bambi with a bess or similar. I decided it probably wouldn't.
    Professional Pest Control without Poisons - Trapping and snaring equipment - www.jllpestcontrol.co.uk

  8. #8
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    So how'sabout a 45-70 centre-fire? Seem to work pretty well on a 1500 pound buffalo, I recall...

    tac

  9. #9
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    It's an interesting question. I suspect most FEO's think blackpowder guns are nothing more than smoke-poles and not powerful enough to drop a deer at 100-200yards.

    I have to admit that many years ago before I took up using muzzleloaders I had a similar opinion, that was until I saw one fired from the prone position. I was amazed how fast the bullet got to the target,(100 yards) and the recoil pushed the shooter back a few inches. As I learnt more and got bit by the bug I gained a healthy respect for the black art.
    If the FEO's were more conversant with muzzleloaders and were aware that a trained marksman using a .577" Enfield could consistently put a bullet in a 4" square at 300 yards, (or was that 400 yards) they might think differently.

    I suspect also that one of the problems with taking live game with a muzzleloaders is that they can be inconsistent. (I might have opened a can of worms here).
    I knew someone who had a flintlock rifle. It took him 2 years to get the patch/powder/lube combination right. But, when he did, he could shoot cloverleaf patterns everytime, but how many of us can do that?

    I think my .41" rifle would knock over a bunny at 100 yards and I would like to try if I could get it on my FAC for pest control.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    So how'sabout a 45-70 centre-fire? Seem to work pretty well on a 1500 pound buffalo, I recall...

    tac
    I know farmer who is allowed to have soft point ammuntion for his 45-70 just in case one of his cows breaks a leg.

  11. #11
    harvey_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    Sigh. I guess you don't get it.

    It's not WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it.

    I'm wasting time trying to explain to you.

    tac
    I think I understand why you might want to...but surely common sense and respect tells you that it's probably better not to?
    A spear or a bow will do the same job, but everyone's moved on since then...

  12. #12
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    My .45-70 can shoot either a stiff BP load and a 300 or 405gr bullet out to 1200 yards at targets, with a reasonable expectation of connecting with them and making a good score - it does, however, require more SKILL than pointing a wonder-calibre high-tech modern rifle. Using a nitro load it can shoot a JSP that can take any animal in USA or Canada, up to and including 1500 pound moose. I'll let YOU figure out the muzzle energy of either of those two bullets travelling at around 2000 fps.

    FYI the Stoney Point trials in the late 1870s, using the then-issue government cartridge, showed an effectively penetrative range exceeding 3500 yards. Things have moved on since the days of shooting a lead lump in front of a 70gr load of BP.

    And putting the shorter range telescopic sight on it makes close-in large game pretty easy - whitetail at 150 - 200 yards.

    The POINT of shooting an older gun is the CHALLENGE and SPORTSMANSHIP and HUNTING SKILLS required to get close enough to do it humanely, although from what I've seen on British Field Sports channel there is little or no tracking going on - most 'hunters' seem to be 'waiters' sitting in trees or lurking in hides until the animal happens to wander past them. Shooting a little creature like a CWD or muntjac in that fashion and crowing over it, after decking it with a high velocity little rifle at fifty yards is nothing special.

    Your modern-day car analogy holds no water with me - I 'spose you'd be happier driving a Mondeo than a Deusenberg - your choice.

    Anyhow, I'm truly sorry to have started the thread in the first place, since you either know what I'm talking about, or you don't.

    Sadly, you don't.

    'bye.

    tac
    Last edited by tacfoley; 11-03-2016 at 09:02 AM.

  13. #13
    harvey_s's Avatar
    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
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    I do understand your point of view and perhaps for you - it's a completely viable option.

    However, the problem I see is making a blanket rule that then allows those without the necessary skillset to have a 'play' with live quarry - an option which I fear will be less than sporting.

  14. #14
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    my grampa, sadly now deceased from Waco texas was an avid hunter. I remember going over there and getting shots of rifles and shotguns probably from the age of about 6 or 7..
    anyway.. as he progressed through life, he left the big bolt and lever actions in favour of BP rifles, and then in later years dropped even these for a bow and arrow.
    I like to think that he did this out of respect and his knowledge of whitetail deer, rather than just taking up a new hobby.

    like tac inferred, knowing your quarry is probably the most important aspect of hunting and respecting its place in the circle of life comes a close second. I dont hunt, but if I did, I would prefer a sub 12 air rifle for small game, and would prefer to use a bow for larger game.. unfortunately, theres nobody going to pass these skills on to me, and without that, I think it could take a lifetime to learn.

    to comment on the original post, I dont know for sure why BP isnt allowed for taking game, but I assume its along the lines of why bows arent allowed for game in the UK - politically correct and intellectually challenged people have at some point decided for the rest of us that its not clinical enough or it violates the animals rights.... I would say to these people that they have their ancestors to thank for them standing where they are today, and that without a degree of barbarism, we will lose what it means to be part of the circle of life
    Donald

  15. #15
    harvey_s's Avatar
    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
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    I would argue that today and in this country, this is a view which is incompatible with keeping our sport safe for the future from the same politically correct and intellectually challenged people that you refer to.

    Only a fool wouldn't recognise the difference between limp-wristed protestation on an internet forum and the damage that could be done by one mis-placed large calibre round in hands of a 'barbarian'.

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