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Thread: Whats' the REAL reason

  1. #16
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    that was a very weak veiled attempt at ridiculing me Harvey.. in retort, I would say that you are one of those people more than willing to accept changes to our 'sport' and will gladly parrot the reasons given for the changes with no thought of your own.
    If by 'keeping our sport safe for the future' means accepting small changes this year to next in the slow erosion of our rights, then you are at the top of your game.
    My comment wasnt a limp wristed protestation, it is merely my thoughts in a conversation between people on a shooting forum. And as for recognising the difference between my comments and a misplaced shot... I have no idea what that even means, it doesnt make sense. Im sure youll tell me though
    Donald

  2. #17
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    ...and yet deer stalkers here in UK happily use .338LM, .300WM, .308Win, 7mmRM and so on for native deer - all of which could be taken with a 6.5x55 from 1895...

    The thread has lost its way now, I think. My nitro-loaded 300gr .45-70 at 150 yards is as good as any of the above.

    tac

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisdonald View Post
    that was a very weak veiled attempt at ridiculing me Harvey.. in retort, I would say that you are one of those people more than willing to accept changes to our 'sport' and will gladly parrot the reasons given for the changes with no thought of your own.
    If by 'keeping our sport safe for the future' means accepting small changes this year to next in the slow erosion of our rights, then you are at the top of your game.
    My comment wasnt a limp wristed protestation, it is merely my thoughts in a conversation between people on a shooting forum. And as for recognising the difference between my comments and a misplaced shot... I have no idea what that even means, it doesnt make sense. Im sure youll tell me though
    I wasn't ridiculing you and the thoughts are most definitely are my own - maybe its just me, but you seem a bit over-sensitive as I'm not seeing what you're reading into this...

    The comment about 'limp-wristed protestation' wasn't a personal attack, rather an an attempt to describe the forum discussion per se as ineffectual, no personal reference here was actually intended and the reference to a mis-placed shot doing more damage than this discussion seems rather too obvious to explain TBH.

  4. #19
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    Tac I would love to shoot quarry with a BP rifle, like any shooting its down to practice,practice,practice before you go near anything alive. BP rifles/muskets are worth the effort.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    ...and yet deer stalkers here in UK happily use .338LM, .300WM, .308Win, 7mmRM and so on for native deer - all of which could be taken with a 6.5x55 from 1895...

    The thread has lost its way now, I think. My nitro-loaded 300gr .45-70 at 150 yards is as good as any of the above.

    tac
    does it make minimum velocity and ME? if so then is there anything to say you can't use it? the only downside to muzzle loaders in the UK I can see (if they meet the requirements of MV &ME) is the lack of availability of a second shot if needed ? or do they still make muzzle loading double rifles ?
    You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    that nobody shoots deer-sized animals here in UK with a muzzle-loader here in UK?

    After a chat with my cousin over the other side of the water, I couldn't give him an answer, except to say that I'd never heard it happening. So, I asked this question of a FEO - NOT a local BTW - and got a sharp intake of breath and a degree of teeth-sucking. It seems that 300gr R.E.A.L. bullet at 1750fps isn't considered enough gun.

    Excuse me? That's 2040 ft lbs right there.

    Even the old Snider - shooting a 535gr lead Minié bullet, stomps up to the plate with 2673 ft lbs.

    Anybody else ever thought about it?

    tac
    I think it's because it might be considered inhumane, (no second shot or long reloading time)
    "Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened" Winston Churchill
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
    does it make minimum velocity and ME? if so then is there anything to say you can't use it? the only downside to muzzle loaders in the UK I can see (if they meet the requirements of MV &ME) is the lack of availability of a second shot if needed ? or do they still make muzzle loading double rifles ?
    Uh, the 45-70 is NOT a muzzle-loader, but either a single-shot cartridge rifle or a multi-shot underlever. Do a little research, eh?

    As for the m/e issue, I was under the impression that a 300gr JSP @2530 fps that makes 3678 ft lbs is more than enough.

    No doubt the real experts will put me right here.

    You'll note that I have, so far, made no mention of muzzleloading...however, you'll all be happy to know that the double rifle BP muzzle-loader is alive and kicking, so to speak. Pedersoli make it in .54 RB and .72 RB.

    tac

  8. #23
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    The big thing to remember is in the UK, is that those that shoot, are not necessarily "gun people". I've come across clay shooters that have had the same gun for 30 years and use the same cartridges. They have no concept of what's available to them in the way of guns, likewise, deer stalkers who shoot maybe 20 rounds a year through a 40 year old Parker Hale, but it's the hunt for them, not the guns.

    That said, I know a stalker who uses WW2 rifles. I have a mate who manages boar in East Sussex with a .45-70 lever gun, a 12ga s1 slug and a .44 mag humane dispatch revolver. And one bloke I bought a 1904 made Marlin carbine in .44-40 had it for fox control on his orchard to protect the bantams he kept for fun! There's loads of what would "obscure" stuff used. Some necessity, some because that's what they've always used and other stuff because they can, have justified it and enjoy it!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by simgre View Post
    The big thing to remember is in the UK, is that those that shoot, are not necessarily "gun people". I've come across clay shooters that have had the same gun for 30 years and use the same cartridges. They have no concept of what's available to them in the way of guns, likewise, deer stalkers who shoot maybe 20 rounds a year through a 40 year old Parker Hale, but it's the hunt for them, not the guns.

    That said, I know a stalker who uses WW2 rifles. I have a mate who manages boar in East Sussex with a .45-70 lever gun, a 12ga s1 slug and a .44 mag humane dispatch revolver. And one bloke I bought a 1904 made Marlin carbine in .44-40 had it for fox control on his orchard to protect the bantams he kept for fun! There's loads of what would "obscure" stuff used. Some necessity, some because that's what they've always used and other stuff because they can, have justified it and enjoy it!
    YAY!!!!

    So it DOES happen!

    Thank you for restoring my faltering faith.

    tac

  10. #25
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    Tac, I have a .45-70 on my FAC conditioned for deer and vermin.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by loach369 View Post
    Tac, I have a .45-70 on my FAC conditioned for deer and vermin.


    tac

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post

    Even the old Snider - shooting a 535gr lead Minié bullet, stomps up to the plate with 2673 ft lbs.

    tac
    Well, excuse me, but Snidey will actually only do about 1856 fpe at its standard 1250 fps - less with the original milspec 480 gn bullet.

    Still should be enough to meet legal requirements - unless these have changed.

    However, I still don't understand why you'd use something inferior to a modern scoped hunting rifle, with no prospect of a quick followup shot if you fluff it.
    ...history... is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind. (Edward Gibbon: Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikB View Post
    Well, excuse me, but Snidey will actually only do about 1856 fpe at its standard 1250 fps - less with the original milspec 480 gn bullet.

    Still should be enough to meet legal requirements - unless these have changed.

    However, I still don't understand why you'd use something inferior to a modern scoped hunting rifle, with no prospect of a quick followup shot if you fluff it.
    You are correct, 1856 fpe it is. That proves to me is that some folks DO read what I post.

    However, I didn't say that I was going to use a Snider, even though I DO have two of 'em. My initial question was about the .45-70 Govt, a cartridge that can be shot from a modern multi-round under-lever rifle or carbine.

    Your not understanding is not my problem. I've tried to explain, obviously with little success, that back in the real world, outside the UK, many hunters understand the challenge of using a single-shot firearm and the need for exact shot placement with the one shot you have, taken at realistic ranges compatible with the arm that you are shooting. Incidentally, there is not a single animal outside a safari park in this country that stand up after connecting with a Snider bullet, or any other Minié, Pritchett or similar bullet, at 100 yards. Back in the country that seems to offend some people here, a pal of mine took down a 1700 pound American Bison with one shot of his .451 Whitworth rifle, shooting his own 600gr swaged bullet.

    In Canada and the US there is a short BP season for game and most BP rifles used are single shot. No doubt the bunny-huggers and bambi-fondlers are running around with their hair on fire at the very thought of it happening here, but they can calm down - it never will.

    Having gotten my answers, I'm done here.

    Thanks to those who provided me with the answers I sought.

    tac

  14. #29
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    Personally think the reason is uk guidance and the words "expanding for humain dispatch" speed of Bullet etc, no point arguing they do it in America as you could say the pugmies used blow pipes for hogs lol.

    Hopefully I get a nicer response than the first guy 😂

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    My initial question was about the .45-70 Govt, a cartridge that can be shot from a modern multi-round under-lever rifle or carbine.
    Unless you can load this cartridge via the muzzle, this wasn't your initial question at all and perhaps why people are not understanding you.

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