The Worst British Rifles

[Hsing-ee]

In terms of design and materials, I think the Webley Hawk Mk III and the BSA Merlin were the bottom of the barrel.

Any others that people can think of? Both of them are not capable of taking any kind of serious use. And it is interesting because the Webley Mk III (underlever) and the BSA Cadet which were from the same factories and almost the same era were excellent designs made extremely well.

[I. J.]

In terms of design and materials, I think the Webley Hawk Mk III and the BSA Merlin were the bottom of the barrel.

Nail on the head.

[ggggr]

In terms of design and materials, I think the Webley Hawk Mk III and the BSA Merlin were the bottom of the barrel.

Any others that people can think of? Both of them are not capable of taking any kind of serious use. And it is interesting because the Webley Mk III (underlever) and the BSA Cadet which were from the same factories and almost the same era were excellent designs made extremely well.

Well--the Merlin looks and has the quality of something that came out of a Christmas cracker. The replacement alloy loading tap that needs hand fitting does not help. The cocking arm looking like an miniature roasting tin and sliding in the stock without any sort of bearing is not good either. The little spring clip to hold the mainspring in is not great . The WORSE thing you can do with a Merlin is to try to tune it/ fit a new/stronger mainspring. The roasting tin cocking arm thing pushes onto a lug on the piston---if either of them wear, the roasting tin can slide off the piston lug and the bit of it that slides in the stock then pulls the stock to pieces----hence all those Merlin broken stocks. I don't like the lack of adjustable sights or the anti beartrap thing as well.
Now I think that the Hawk Mk3 is unfairly criticised. It is basically a smaller diameter cylinder Vulcan with crap Ptfe rings on the piston. It has a better trigger,sights and safety (Always an odd term to use with Webley rifle safety catches) than the Hawk Mk1. It like a Hawk Mk2 with a better safety (again???) but with a non changeable barrel. It still has the crap rear stock bolt fixing on the trigger housing like the Vulcan/Osprey etc
A couple of simple changes will improve the Hawk mk2 and 3. (1) Throw away the safety catch and fit the sear spring from a Victor. (2) Get rid of the front piston ring and fit an O ring. I leave the rear one just as some sort of lubrication aid.
I know Mick has fitted a different piston head/ washer to his Mk2 and sleeved the transfer port and upped the power. I think just sleeving the transfer port would help without a Weihrauch seal adapted to the piston.

Some of the Milbro efforts are pretty shoddy, with the medallion that falls off (Josie and John is looking for one and I need a couple if anyone fancies reproing them? ),crappy trigger and safety, crappy sights etc----BUT even all these are of better quality than the Cougar pistol. I like the earlier Diana 25, but even with that, using one pin to hold the cylinder sleeve and as a trigger pivot---the Krauts used one pin for each job, making it easier to change the spring, piston washer.
Whoops, I've gone into rant mode.

[I. J.]

Some of the Milbro efforts are pretty shoddy ......

I cant name one that isn't.

[Phil Russell]

In terms of design and materials, I think the Webley Hawk Mk III and the BSA Merlin were the bottom of the barrel.

Looking at them now and using your criteria of design and materials, you could be right; but more right for the Merlin than the Hawk. But then, to give the Merlin its grace, it was introduced at a time before air guns attracted such an enthusiastic 'tinkerer / design critic' group of people as exist today (I think this statement is justified). The Merlin was introduced as a 'boys' rifle and was the 'bees knees' at the time. I remember a friend getting one for Christmas (very early 1960s?) and we were all in awe of him ... here was a rifle that was different. Materials used in construction, power etc were things just not thought about ... it was different, it worked and we were as jealous as hell of our friend, wanting to go and visit him at every opportunity to knock a few toy soldiers over in his garden.

Oh happy memories.
Cheers, Phil

[Josie & John]

As much as I hate to admit it and much to I.J's satisfaction the Webley Hawks fall into this category.

I hate saying so as I have been a lifelong Webley enthusiast. It is a great shame some of their 1970s efforts were made down to a price rather than up to the quality expected from this firm. The worst feature is the poor quality metal used for the air cylinder, where the mainspring retaining pin is located. I have seen rifles where the location holes elongate into egg shapes and this can result in the sear releasing before it is supposed to - a very dangerous flaw in an air rifle.

John

[oliver13]

A mate from school had a failure in his Webley where the cocked spring shot out of the back as he was taking aim, he was lucky, instead of embedding itself in his eye it just left a nasty red weal on his eyebrow and temple which went some very interesting colours over the following weeks. I never saw the gun but it sounds like the compression tube snapped at the spring retaining pin holes.

I think that was a pretty bad British gun.

[Josie & John]

A mate from school had a failure in his Webley where the cocked spring shot out of the back as he was taking aim, he was lucky, instead of embedding itself in his eye it just left a nasty red weal on his eyebrow and temple which went some very interesting colours over the following weeks. I never saw the gun but it sounds like the compression tube snapped at the spring retaining pin holes.

I think that was a pretty bad British gun.

Can you imagine a product being made like that today? Just think of the lawsuits!

[AllanM]

I have to admit I have a great fondness for the delicate little Merlin although everything ggggr says is absolutely spot on -- I have one with a cracked stock which I strongly suspect has been caused by tampering with the innards -- still they are, to my eyes anyway, a very elegant looking rifle.

[I. J.]

As much as I hate to admit it and much to I.J's satisfaction the Webley Hawks fall into this category.

John

Webley did produce some nice rifles - Omega and Longbow for example but they also produce some poor ones like the Service, Osprey, and Mk 3 (especially the Super Target variants of the later two) and some dire ones like the Hawk. Im biting my lip over Wobbly pistols.

[Josie & John]

Webley did produce some nice rifles - Omega and Longbow for example but they also produce some poor ones like the Service, Osprey, and Mk 3 (especially the Super Target variants of the later two) and some dire ones like the Hawk. Im biting my lip over Wobbly pistols.

The Service??? Now that was one of their better rifles. It was so good, the company apparently never made a penny out of the design.

Had the Supertarget been fitted with the trigger used for the Mark 3 made just before the Supertarget, it would have been a better rifle. It is still a classic though, although often oversprung by the factory.

John

[Geezer]

Straight answer: all Milbros, even the Airgunaid custom ones. Mediocre, and compare what we did with Diana's heritage with what M&G did. Could have been world-beaters, instead were basically Scottish Relums. I have pretty eclectic tastes, but no Milbro has ever appealed except maybe the little G4 pistol (and I know it's actually rubbish and worse than the original).

The Mk3 Webley is nothing like as good as nostalgia says (and a Diana copy). The Service is odd, but for 1920-something was very good, and it is appealing in a Heath-Robinson way.

The ones that annoy or sadden me most are all the not bad guns that could easily have been much better except for cost-cutting or poor design or business decisions. The Airsporter, Merc, Vulcan, Osprey/Tracker could all have been Weihrauch-beaters if they had had better triggers/breech arrangements/internals. By the time BSA and Webley realised this and started churning out RB2s, Superstars, Omegas, Longbows and so on, it was too late (and the idiots still thought we'd pay more for a British gun than its usually slightly better German rival).

The only really impressive mainstream British gun from 1970-84 was the BSA Scorpion, which can still hold its own or better with any powerful springer pistol made.

[Shed tuner]

Stirling HR81. Firing cycle like a car crash.

[Geezer]

Stirling HR81. Firing cycle like a car crash.

Ah, yes, they are dreck.

But I'll raise you. Sterling HR83. Same, but more expensive and with a self-destructing trigger mechanism.

How about the early Jackal Parabellum Woodstock? A sort of ugly Osprey.

[harry mac]

I am a big fan of the Hawks, mainly because the first rifle I ever owned was a Hawk MkII, bought for me by my dad for my 11th birthday, but I'm not blind to their many faults.
The Vulcan Mk1 was the rifle the Hawk MkIII should have been. I recon the continued production of The Hawk after it's faults became well known, damaged Webley's reputation so badly that they never recovered. By the time they introduced the Omega, which rectified most of the faults inherent in the Hawk/Vulcan design, it was already too late.