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Thread: Were BSA air rifles ever used by the military for training during the first world war

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    Unframed Dave's Avatar
    Unframed Dave is offline World pork pie juggling champion three years straight
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    Were BSA air rifles ever used by the military for training during the first world war

    I was told this by a dealer trying to sell a BSA at an antiques fair yesterday.

    Dave
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    i was at the same fair....... and saw the same gun with the tag that it was used for training the army.... had a chuckle then looked in the showcase at the Webley premiers, my eyes then watered, then I asked the price of the Webley pellet tin and decided I should go before i had to suffer the speil.

    the bsa was an L patern they were certainly not used by the army for training.

    the only ones that were the bsa military pattern but I think that those were mainly used by public schools for training the cadets? am sure someone will correct me.

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    advert somewhere

    I have an advert somewhere, i guess published by the MOD at the time asking for the loan of air rifles to train recruits, i think it specifically ask for lincoln jeffries types and break barrel types and then goes on to state that the greener air rifle not be considered, i forget the exact wording and a copy of the same advert is on the bsa forum somewhere, so i think you can safely assume the answer is "yes".
    There are also a couple of military pattern air rifles on the bsa forum which have confirmed army use, but i think in general they were considered too expensive for the army, and as you say many of those sold were bought by institutions.
    Eric

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    Some Mil Pats were used by the forces and appropriately stamped examples can be seen on the vintage BSA Airgun forum. I have an early pre WW1 Ordinary Pattern that has been stamped with the WD 'crow's foot' and fitted with the butt from an SMLE (not my SMLE Lincoln, which was a later conversion). The story I was told was it was part of a batch used by cadets but I was never able to substantiate this. I suspect BSAs would have been used by cadets as they were so useful and accurate - we just need to unearth some concrete proof of this.

    John
    Currently looking for Baikal Makarov pistols with the following prefixes to the serial number: 98, T01, T09, T21, T22
    Prefer boxed or cased but will consider loose examples too.

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    To hijack the thread slightly did BSA make any air guns prior to the Lincoln Jeffries? A very knowledgable chap I respect tremendously once mentioned having one, well, actually he said pre 1900. I feel almost disloyal asking the question but that's the price of an enquiring mind and there's no better place to ask.

    No axe to grind, just want to know, Mick.
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    If you look at the John Knibbs book(s) there is a rifle stamped with Irish guards, it belongs to Edbear, who may be along at some point to add a comment.

    But whether this was for target practice or possibly, I'm surmising a bell target team who knows, as lets remember the sport of bell target was very popular at the time with clubs in work places and social meeting places

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    Quote Originally Posted by walnutfarmmick View Post
    To hijack the thread slightly did BSA make any air guns prior to the Lincoln Jeffries? A very knowledgable chap I respect tremendously once mentioned having one, well, actually he said pre 1900. I feel almost disloyal asking the question but that's the price of an enquiring mind and there's no better place to ask.

    No axe to grind, just want to know, Mick.
    Hi Mick,

    Not any production airguns prior to the Lincoln.

    Lincoln Jeffries did stamp imported Gem and Millita type airguns with his LINCOLN brand name though and that may be confusing the chap you mention?

    Kind regards,

    John
    Currently looking for Baikal Makarov pistols with the following prefixes to the serial number: 98, T01, T09, T21, T22
    Prefer boxed or cased but will consider loose examples too.

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    Don't forget the BSA Gun Laying Teachers.
    Probably not what Dave (the OP) was alluding to, but it certainly fits the description of a "BSA used for military training during WW1".

  9. #9
    edbear2 Guest
    Hi Dave,

    In the 1906 book "the complete air gunner" by R.B. Townshend there are plates showing cadets at a private school using Milpats, and in the back there is a full page BSA advert for the military pattern which states;

    "This rifle is used by many regiments, including;

    The Royal Horse Guards.

    The 1st V.B. Royal Warwickshire Regt.

    The Central London Rangers.

    Now this was an expensive gun at the time, 4 weeks plus skilled man wages or more, So I am led to believe BSA either "donated" or heavily discounted this model to various units to drum up publicity.

    Now as to whether the guns were used in formal training I don't know, the Army also used sub caliber morris tube Lee rifles and also .22 rimfire trainers at the time, so the airgun would have been good for training sight pictures and basic safety, or for use inside barracks or restricted areas where a cartridge was too noisy / unsafe.

    My gun, as well as a few more out there, certainly looks to have been the property of a unit;

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...57627403551588

    In the period of WW1, but despite repeated attempts include an offer to loan the gun, and sae envelopes with very polite requests, The guards museum has totally ignored me

    Anyway, John Knibbs has been very helpful, especially in respect of the unique trigger, and told me the Guards armourers at the time did development work for BSA on the gun layer, and in his opinion the trigger is probably their work in an effort to simulate the service rifle?

    So in answer, the consensus seems to be that various units had either Military pattern rifles or Improved / Standard rifles in their possession and marked as property, but no-one seems exactly sure where they fitted in the scheme of training for sure except for educated guesses.

    ATB, Ed

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    Hi Ed,

    My feelings on your military pattern, would be that it might possibly have been donated as part of a recreation or comforts fund for the troops, a convalescence home or even recruiting drives. As you probably know, regimental markings at the time were usually just a series of letters and numbers. Has Knibbs got any of the dispatch records for the military patterns. Suppose there no chance of tracing previous owners from the vendor.

    Have you tried any of the WW1 forums, there's some really knowledgeable people out there.

    Have also seen newspaper adverts, requesting the loan of air rifles for the duration of the war and stating "especially Lincoln Jeffries types". As I remember they didn't want break barrels or .22 calibers.
    Last edited by silva; 30-03-2016 at 02:09 PM.
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    Unframed Dave's Avatar
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    Thanks all, not as straightforward a question as I thought.

    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie & John View Post
    Hi Mick,

    Not any production airguns prior to the Lincoln.

    Lincoln Jeffries did stamp imported Gem and Millita type airguns with his LINCOLN brand name though and that may be confusing the chap you mention?

    Kind regards,

    John
    I expect that's it, John. Unfortunately I only see this chap when an antique fair precedes a motorcycle auto jumble which he stands on his way home. And providing the weather is good enough for me to turn out and
    I'm not too busy.

    Thanks, Mick
    When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .

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    Fascinating thread, thanks Guys !
    “An airgun or two”………

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