Law Commission Report

[Abasmajor]

Without wishing to become a harbinger of doom, I must admit to having serious concerns regarding the recently published Law Commission Report on "Firearms Law reforms to Address Pressing Problems".

In the medium term the report recommends a complete re-write of current firearms legislation, but also recommends a series of 'quick fixes' to address what are considered pressing problems. Among these is a proposed definition of lethality as 1 joule which equates to just under 0.8 ft/lbs. If my understanding is correct, this would mean any gun generating muzzle energy in excess of 1 joule (> 0.8 ft/lbs) could be considered lethal with the attendant presumption that it would be classed as a 'firearm'.

While I don't believe it would be practical for the government to adopt this recommendation and re-classify the majority of air guns as firearms, it does worry me that this may be the way we may be eventually heading.

Regards

Brian

[pnird]

I admit that I am no longer astonished when I encounter such eccentric and frivolous recommendations in “official” documents; but I do wonder whether it can really be the case that no member of the Civil Service has ever handled an air gun? Or that no owner of such a device has been consulted? Or is it simply that the authors of such documents are not required to have any knowledge at all of physics, a capacity to type being their only accomplishment?

John

[wild boar]

then everyone with an airgun , who can do so - should get a full blown f.a.c. and a big rifle , that would teach them for being so stupid .tens of thousands of firearms certificates to administer etc. unless of course they intend to take all firearms off civilians totally.

[Benelli B76]

then everyone with an airgun , who can do so - should get a full blown f.a.c. and a big rifle , that would teach them for being so stupid .tens of thousands of firearms certificates to administer etc. unless of course they intend to take all firearms off civilians totally.

Regarding the change of law in Scotland, I heard at Bisley that many airgun enthusiasts are applying for full bore FAC weapons now that airguns are going FAC. It is sort of back firing on legislators, and also the police will not be able to cope with the implementation.

Baz

[Nessmuk]

Without wishing to become a harbinger of doom, I must admit to having serious concerns regarding the recently published Law Commission Report on "Firearms Law reforms to Address Pressing Problems".

In the medium term the report recommends a complete re-write of current firearms legislation, but also recommends a series of 'quick fixes' to address what are considered pressing problems. Among these is a proposed definition of lethality as 1 joule which equates to just under 0.8 ft/lbs. If my understanding is correct, this would mean any gun generating muzzle energy in excess of 1 joule (> 0.8 ft/lbs) could be considered lethal with the attendant presumption that it would be classed as a 'firearm'.

While I don't believe it would be practical for the government to adopt this recommendation and re-classify the majority of air guns as firearms, it does worry me that this may be the way we may be eventually heading.

Regards

Brian

Is it not the case already that airguns are classed as firearms in law? Not section 1 firearms, but still firearms. I was told they were by an NSRA trainer when on an airgun course, also the know your law PDF the BASC have on their site agrees. The lethality bit looks like it's not currently law but widely accepted that energy in excess of 1 joule is lethal, and each case would be taken on it's merits.

[gingernut]

Airguns are firearms.

[Turnup]

Without wishing to become a harbinger of doom, I must admit to having serious concerns regarding the recently published Law Commission Report on "Firearms Law reforms to Address Pressing Problems".

In the medium term the report recommends a complete re-write of current firearms legislation, but also recommends a series of 'quick fixes' to address what are considered pressing problems. Among these is a proposed definition of lethality as 1 joule which equates to just under 0.8 ft/lbs. If my understanding is correct, this would mean any gun generating muzzle energy in excess of 1 joule (> 0.8 ft/lbs) could be considered lethal with the attendant presumption that it would be classed as a 'firearm'.

While I don't believe it would be practical for the government to adopt this recommendation and re-classify the majority of air guns as firearms, it does worry me that this may be the way we may be eventually heading.

Regards

Brian

This changes nothing, apart from adding some clarity to "lethal"

Airguns are already "Firearms", HO Guidance 2.3:

"A ‘Firearm’ means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged."

The current legislation talks about "lethal" firearms but does not define lethality.

The 1 joule energy limit is also in HO guidance March 2015 as a proposal.

It is clear already that sub 12 airguns can be lethal (people have been killed) and the proposed change is only to define "lethal" in a quantitative manner, rather than "leave it to the court to decide" as is at present. (Similarly they are proposing to define "antique")

Present firearms legislation specifically exempts sub 12/6 airguns and there is no reason to believe that this will change.

[ashf9999]

Regarding the change of law in Scotland, I heard at Bisley that many airgun enthusiasts are applying for full bore FAC weapons now that airguns are going FAC. It is sort of back firing on legislators, and also the police will not be able to cope with the implementation.

Baz

It'll take up their time, but don't forget a good reason is needed for each S1 weapon, so unless they have a lot of land or are a member of an approved club etc they will have a hard time getting approval. Just having an FAC (especially if granted for an airgun) doesn't automatically clear you for having whatever else (powder burner wise) you wish. I wonder how many people who actually got an FAC granted for their SCAC guns later got a variation for something else.

[ashf9999]

This changes nothing, apart from adding some clarity to "lethal"

Airguns are already "Firearms", HO Guidance 2.3:

"A ‘Firearm’ means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged."

The current legislation talks about "lethal" firearms but does not define lethality.

The 1 joule energy limit is also in HO guidance March 2015 as a proposal.

It is clear already that sub 12 airguns can be lethal (people have been killed) and the proposed change is only to define "lethal" in a quantitative manner, rather than "leave it to the court to decide" as is at present. (Similarly they are proposing to define "antique")

Present firearms legislation specifically exempts sub 12/6 airguns and there is no reason to believe that this will change.

Indeed, I think it is more to do with legal clarification rather than anything else at this stage. I guess a court case where an assault with a (potentially) lethal weapon, as defined by law, is less easy for a defence lawyer to try and diminish. That said, there may as always be the unintended consequence of making any future 'tightening' of the airgun laws easier.

[Abasmajor]

Thanks to everybody for the informative replies to this thread which in themselves provide significant clarity to the situation.

Interesting that the proposed 1 joule lethality recommendation includes an increased limit for air soft weapons.


Regards

Brian

[TopDog]

Without wishing to become a harbinger of doom, I must admit to having serious concerns regarding the recently published Law Commission Report on "Firearms Law reforms to Address Pressing Problems".

In the medium term the report recommends a complete re-write of current firearms legislation, but also recommends a series of 'quick fixes' to address what are considered pressing problems. Among these is a proposed definition of lethality as 1 joule which equates to just under 0.8 ft/lbs. If my understanding is correct, this would mean any gun generating muzzle energy in excess of 1 joule (> 0.8 ft/lbs) could be considered lethal with the attendant presumption that it would be classed as a 'firearm'.

While I don't believe it would be practical for the government to adopt this recommendation and re-classify the majority of air guns as firearms, it does worry me that this may be the way we may be eventually heading.

Regards

Brian

Quite! A bag of sugar dropped from a height of about 6 ft exceeds the current UK energy limit for air rifles! Time these guys got a life! Time we also stopped getting paranoid about these things and get on with our own lives!

We here in Scotland are just getting on with it. I have a new SGC and may well apply for a full FAC - silly innit when I only want air guns!

End of rant!

atvb
David

[Benelli B76]

It'll take up their time, but don't forget a good reason is needed for each S1 weapon, so unless they have a lot of land or are a member of an approved club etc they will have a hard time getting approval. Just having an FAC (especially if granted for an airgun) doesn't automatically clear you for having whatever else (powder burner wise) you wish. I wonder how many people who actually got an FAC granted for their SCAC guns later got a variation for something else.

So you will get an FAC for an air rifle in Scotland even if you do not belong to a club or have land to shoot on ?
Be interesting to see how this change in the law pans out in Scotland as it may filter down here eventually. I have a licence to carry a pistol for self defence in South Africa, what a complete difference in attitude to here where it is difficult to get a 6mm bb pistol of 1 joule because it "looks" like a real firearm.

Baz

[ashf9999]

So you will get an FAC for an air rifle in Scotland even if you do not belong to a club or have land to shoot on ?
Be interesting to see how this change in the law pans out in Scotland as it may filter down here eventually. I have a licence to carry a pistol for self defence in South Africa, what a complete difference in attitude to here where it is difficult to get a 6mm bb pistol of 1 joule because it "looks" like a real firearm.

Baz

No idea. I was relating it to the comment that every airgun owner may as well apply for a fullbore as well. As far as I know, they're (fullbores) treated the same north or south of the border from a good reason etc point of view...

[Shed tuner]

Airguns are firearms.

That's what I thought.

[jassi]

So you will get an FAC for an air rifle in Scotland even if you do not belong to a club or have land to shoot on ?
Be interesting to see how this change in the law pans out in Scotland as it may filter down here eventually. I have a licence to carry a pistol for self defence in South Africa, what a complete difference in attitude to here where it is difficult to get a 6mm bb pistol of 1 joule because it "looks" like a real firearm.

Baz

Life might be a whole lot easier if airsoft and air pistols didn't look like realistic firearms.