Re-badged pellets.

[Riffler]

Please post here if you know certain pellets are re-badged under another name.
Also, how do you know this?

[El Garro]

There are a few that may use their own die or have slightly different head sizes such as Jsb/air arms/FX and one of the gun makers brands.
H&N hft and weihrauch ft are another.
crosman magnum/ Webley accupells/silco and another makers branded pellet are the same too.

can't remember the makers branded ones but I think the daystate sovereign pellets are one of them.
Perhaps someone will know which ones and post it here.
A guy at air arms told me about their pellets, I've compared h&n to the Weihrauch and the accupells all come in the same tins.

[flyingfish]

I always thought Air Arms and JSB Exact were the same. But the 2 tins I compared (no not every pellet in 2 tins ) showed the head sizes of the JSBs were much more consistent

Pete

[angrybear]

Gamo make their own braded pellets but also BSA pylarm, and I believe some that are branded as Beeman for the US market,
other Beeman pellets are made by H&N,
& I believe Bisley are also made by H&N.

[Brian.Samson]

Air Arms Fields and Daystate Sovereign are made by JSB - I know because both companies freely admit this.

Both companies both say they have their own dies at JSB and AA say they use their own formulation of lead for the pellets made by them.

There are around 50 dies churning out 8.4 grain pellets at the JSB Factory (I'm assuming this because if you look around you can find approximately 50 different die numbers available during a year).

Air Arms have told visitors on factory visits that they own 11 dies at JSB

After a straw poll on another forum, we have found 12 different die numbers quoted on the bottom of AA Fields tins (in the last couple of years)

These are : 34, 31, 29, 27, 21, 18, 14, 12, 10, 9, 5, 2

I have only ever had Daystate pellets from the following dies : 10, 11 (there may be others)

In the last 3 years I've certainly had pellets badged as JSB Exact from die 34, and die 10.

I currently have 100 tins of JSB Exact die 10 (2016) in my possession and just last week I was shown tins of AA Fields and Daystate Sovereign marked as die 10. They didn't belong to me, but I physically held the tins in my hands, checked the die number on the bottom of the tin and examined the pellets - comparing them to my tins of die 10 JSB Exacts. Visually they look the same, the head sizes (when measured with a PelletGage head measuring device averaged out at around 4.51/4.50 (tins are marked as 4.52).

The insert in the skirt was different for all 3.

Recently I've discovered this : It's only the outside of the pellet that is formed by the die, the inside of the skirt is formed by an insert which can vary depending on the density of lead used in the process. (Deeper insert for a more dense mix of lead). So it's perfectly possibly that two pellets can come from the same die but have a different profile up the skirt.

Make your own mind up - 12 dies from AA, at least 2 from Daystate - some share the same die numbers as pellets badged as JSB Exact.

Are they the same pellet from the same die?

[Nessmuk]

Do JSB have some sort of tie up with CZ? The tin of JSB Exact I have has the CZ logo on the tin.

[ballisticboy]

Recently I've discovered this : It's only the outside of the pellet that is formed by the die, the inside of the skirt is formed by an insert which can vary depending on the density of lead used in the process. (Deeper insert for a more dense mix of lead). So it's perfectly possibly that two pellets can come from the same die but have a different profile up the skirt.

That's a bit worrying as it will change the centre of gravity position and the moments of inertia even if the mass is kept the same. The change in centre of gravity position will change the aerodynamic moments which may change the basic pellet characteristics most of which seem to be marginal to start with. I have noticed in the past that some of the published photos of sectioned pellets have shown completely different profiles internally when they are supposed to be the same pellet.

[Brian.Samson]

That's a bit worrying as it will change the centre of gravity position and the moments of inertia even if the mass is kept the same. The change in centre of gravity position will change the aerodynamic moments which may change the basic pellet characteristics most of which seem to be marginal to start with. I have noticed in the past that some of the published photos of sectioned pellets have shown completely different profiles internally when they are supposed to be the same pellet.

It is curious isn't it. That information is 2nd hand information from someone who went on a factory tour of AA and that's what they were told. JSB do a small run with a die, then check the pellets for accuracy and weight. If it fails the test, they try a different insert and test again.

There seems to be around 3 different design of skirt insert being used from what I've seen.

That does make sense, and I guess it ties in with reports you hear from time to time when people say they seem to be getting more dented skirts in a tin than normal. If a mixture of lead has a higher lead content, they may need to use a deeper insert in order to bring the weight down to 8.4 grains and that might explain why the skirts are a softer lead and thinner skirt wall and therefore are more prone to getting damaged in transit.

The other worrying thing is that the accuracy testing is carried out on an indoor range - so the decision to change the skirt insert doesn't seem to take account of how well that design performs in the wind.

[Riffler]

I always thought Air Arms and JSB Exact were the same. But the 2 tins I compared (no not every pellet in 2 tins ) showed the head sizes of the JSBs were much more consistent

Pete

I recently bought a springer from a well known supplier and asked for some AA Field diabolo.
He went to some lengths to explain they were identical for JSB, showing me the label stuck on the tin, which then had an AA label stuck on top. (JSBs are cheaper?)
Despite his advice, I went on to buy the AAs in .22
You can just make this out in this pic


http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/...pszhuocliy.jpg





a different tin of .177 just shows the Czech republic label

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/...psnia8paka.jpg




Are we paying a premium for particular brands of pellets that are cheaper under different names?

[ping]

i wish the rifle manufactures would stick to rifles
and let the pellets be made by the pellet companies
its getting to the point where you know what your buying

ping

[Brian.Samson]

...
You can just make this out in this pic
...

That's a photo of an Air Arms sticker on top of another Air Arms sticker. AA put the actual date of manufacture on the bottom of the tin, JSB just put the year of manufacture (the last 2 digits of the batch number).

All I can say with some certainty is that Air Arms pellets can be made on any of 12 dies, out of those 12 dies there are at least 3 different skirt inserts used. That means there are at least 36 different designs of AA Fields. Some of them will be mega, some not so mega.

If you buy a tin of pellets, regardless of the label on the tin, you largely take pot luck as to how they'll perform in your gun.

If by chance you do happen to find a tin of mega pellets, just buying another tin with the same sticker on the front is no guarantee that you'll get a mega pellet or a not so mega pellet.

I have found though that pellets with exactly the same batch number on the bottom of the tin seem to perform the same. So if you do find a mega pellet make a note of the batch number and buy in bulk.

btw - when it comes to consistency of head size - none of them are. JSB aren't able to manufacture pellets at a penny a pop to a tolerance of 100 microns - just not possible I'm afraid.

[flyingfish]

What would you think of as an acceptable tolerance between pellets from the same tin?
Pete

[ivortripod]

As far as I can see RWS-Meisterkugeln and H&N Excite econ .177s are the same thing but the RWS are about a quid or so more per 500 Very rapid turnround on the Excite tins from Voymir.com , last price quoted for them was about £4.77 post paid & 48hrs delivery ..

ps: if there is any difference apart from the price, no doubt someone will soon spill the beans

[Brian.Samson]

What would you think of as an acceptable tolerance between pellets from the same tin?
Pete

That's a good question, I've never considered the answer before... dunno

[Whitebeam]

Got a new tin of .22 JSB Express the other day. Of 10 random sample pellets, every single one of 'em was 5.52. I know 10 out of 500 isn't many, but I thought that was pretty consistent myself.

Peter