LP5/50 now section 5.

[tinbum]

Here you go, printed from the government site this morning. This is the actual law as worded and is quite unequivical. The post it note found on the fridge door of the CPS canteen in 1997 is useful, but contrary to the letter of the law. I wouldn't risk by ability to keep guns and liberty on it.
One theory is that the wording was supposed to be "up to .22 rimfire" which would at least make sense.

3.2 Section 5(1) of the 1968 Act, as modified by the Transfer of Functions (ProhibitedWeapons) Order 1968 and amended by the 1988 Act, the 1992 Regulations, the 1997Acts, the Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999,the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 and the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act20141, makes it unlawful to purchase, acquire or possess, without the authority of theSecretary of State, any prohibited weapon or ammunition. Section 5(1A) of the 1968 Actmakes it unlawful to purchase, acquire or possess, without the authority of the Secretary ofState, any prohibited weapon or ammunition. Unlike the section 5 (1) offence, the section
5 (2A) offence contained in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 coversthe manufacture, sale or transfer of any prohibited weapon or prohibited ammunition andthe possession for sale or transfer and, purchase or acquisition for sale or transfer of anyprohibited weapon or prohibited ammunition.
Those weapons and ammunition, which are prohibited, consist of:

1. i) any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can besuccessively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger (section 5(1)(a));
   
   
   
2. ii) any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22rimfire cartridges (section 5(1)(ab));
   
   
   
3. iii) any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, a muzzle-loading gun or afirearm designed as signalling apparatus (section 5(1)(aba));
   
   
   
4. iv) any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not an air weapon orchambered for .22 rimfire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches inlength or is less than 40 inches in length overall (section 5(1)(ac));
   
   
   
5. v) any smooth-bore revolver gun other than one which is chambered for 9mm rimfirecartridges or a muzzle-loading revolver gun (section 5(1)(ad));
   

[lucklogic]

These air pistols are still widely available from multiple UK dealers. They would not be if any problem existed

[Brian.Samson]

According to the letter of the law (amended in 1997) they do appear to be inadvertently included in the ban.

However, this situation was clarified by the Home Office after the law was amended.. The relevant document is Home Office Circular 68/97 :


HOC 68/97

10. We have consulted ACPO and the Crown Prosecution Service about the legal status of these weapons and have agreed, in the absence of a court ruling, that the issue should be resolved formally at the next legislative opportunity. In the meantime chief officers are advised that self-loading or pump-action rifle air guns should continue to be regarded as falling outside the certification process provided that they are low powered and do not fall within the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969.



There was some talk a little while ago that the Steyr Hunter 5 (semi-automatic air rifle) was going to become illegal after talks between the Gun Trade Association and the Home office, but so far nothing has come of this, there have been no announcements, no changes in the law and no new Home Office guidance issued.

The legal status is that the letter of the law prohibits them (due to an oversight in 1997), but the Home Office, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the Association of Chief Police Officers all say that it was just an oversight in the law and it will not be applied to low powered airguns (sub 6/12).

So.... until anything changes (and it could?) then no one will be subject to legal proceedings for possession of an LP5/50.

[gingernut]

Correct.
But my suggestion is that this particular ants nest should not be poked anymore.

[RobinC]

The hotch potch of law on Firearms can be used to make almost any thing illegal if selected parts are taken in isolation, that is why the home office issue guidance on the interpretation.
This is how the police interpret this mess, by using this Official guidance.
Section 2.42 states:-

Airguns, air rifles, air pistols are exempt from the certification requirement if they are not of a type declared specially dangerous by the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 as amended by the 1993 Rules, or the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Scotland Rules 1969, as ammended by the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) (Scotland) ammendment Rules 1993.

Specially dangerous is defined in Section 2.43:-

The rules provide tha any air weapon is "specialy dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle a kinetic energy in excess , in the case of an air pistol 6 ft lbs or, in the case of a weapen other than an air pistol 12 ft lbs.

It then continues with dimensions but excludes air pistols under 6 ft lbs from those requirements.


Yes, those sections (ii) Prohibited Weapons taken in isolation could be interpreted incorrectly as the five shot air pistol is included and is therefore required to be covered by the certification requirement of a section five, but it is over riden by the clearly stated exemption in 2.42 above and the definition in 2.43.

This is the definition and interpretation the Police sensibly take, the Home office take, and why five shots are not illegal and not required to be section 5.

There is at this moment a review of the many and varied Firearms acts, amendments, Rules, and gudances, and the intention not objected to by any of our Governing bodies to unify them in one sensible act so every one can understand them and not get caught in innocent traps. This is accepetd now by the police and the home office as a non issue and it will be resolved with this unification so the technical law reflects what it was intended to be.

[rogb]

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....0-IS-now-legal!

[partner k1250]

so were does that leave the hunting 5 sa rifle in the eyes of law?

[Rickenbacker]

so were does that leave the hunting 5 sa rifle in the eyes of law?

[...] my suggestion is that this particular ants nest should not be poked anymore.

Seconded.

[tigercat]

Seconded.

best let sleeping dogs lay

[wonky donky]

I agree with Rich. If sem-auto airguns are now Section 5, why aren't they planning to round up all the hundreds of SA airguns that have been circulating in the UK for decades? SA airguns that have been widely advertised and used in ISSF competitions in the UK. I don't think the CPS are really confident that these SA guns fall into the Section 5 definition and they might well lose the case if they tried posecuting someone for owning an SA airgun.

This isn't correct, it's only rifled barrel rifles/pistols that could be caught....maybe.......perhaps not....well they could....perhaps not & so on. not something a bold statement can quantify.

Your correct the CPS aren't sure/confident as there are too many letters........ get out of jail free cards, about in the form of letters saying the law was never intended to catch these pistols.

... especially as we have the HO circular and the CPS statement from 1998 or so, saying that nobody will be prosecuted just for ownership. Any defence brief worth his or her salt ought to be able to use that to good effect.

If Harry cant import & sell them because they may be section 5, Harry can't repair them either if he's not a section 5 dealer.

[Terry D]

As posted elsewhere: I haven't read the Gunmart piece, or spoken to the Gun Trade Association on this matter, but I'll do both in the morning. However, I did get an email a few days ago from a concerned shooter, it's reproduced below exactly as received, and you may make of it what you will:

'I have been trying to buy a Steyr lp50 and have been told by 3 RFDs that they have been BANNED soI rang the Home Office to ask WHY.
This is the answer I got back.
Section 5(1)(ab) of the 1968 Firearms Act(as amended) states That ALL self loading or pump action rifles guns are classified as prohibited other than those which are chambered for .22 rim fire cartridges. There is no specific exemption in this provision for air rifle/weapons as there is for some other provisions in the act. I would also like to clarify that this is not recent legislation as this amendment dates back to 1997. So if you own any 5 shot rifled self loading pistol YOU ARE NOW COMMITTING AN OFFENCE AND COULD BE FINED IMPRISONED OR BOTH.
I would suggest you contact the Drugs and Firearms Licensing Unit Home Office
Fry5 the Floor SE
2 Marsha Street
London SW1P 4 DF
www.gov.uk/home-office

Please publish this letter to warn my fellow shooters of this problem.'

Again, I haven't verified the content of the email, although I can confirm that it was copied to other publishers.

More news as I get it.

[RobinC]

Terry
Have you read or seen the Home Office Circular No.68/97? This is dated from 1997 when the matter was first identified, and appears to clarify the issue then, and states :-

"We have consulted the ACPO and the CPS about the legal status of these weapons and have agreed, in the absence of a court ruling, that the issue should be resolved formally at the next legistalative opportunity. In the meantime Chief officers are advised that self loading or pump action rfle airguns should continue to be regarded as falling outside the certification process provided that they are low powered and do not fall within the Firearms (Dangerous Weapons) rules 1969."

No its not recent legislation, its an issue that was raised in 1997, reviewed by the HO, and clarified in black and white!

I would add that there have been several legislative opprtunities since, and if they wished they could have been specifically banned, they have not, HOC 68/97 has not been revoked, in fact the most recent HO guidance on firearms in 2015 states that air guns are exempt the certification process, and that covers all except those listed as Dangerous, and it lists various law and rules, and the only specification referred in those regulations and rules for Dangerous is below 12 and 6 ft lb, nothing about semi auto, just air guns. I have spoken to my own very efficient FA dept and they see this as very clear, under 6 pistol or 12 rifle is legal.

Looks like (yet again?) some Chief Officers, and some HO officials do not read their own documents, and are intent on making up their own laws and interpretations! These were never intended to be illegal, it was an error of ommision in the legislation, the HO office and the CPS accepted that in 1997, they circularised all Chief officers and HO with the sensible facts, they state it will be corrected at the next revision of legislation.

Nothing has changed, except people are discovereing old news, looking at part of the facts and jumping to conclusions.

[Terry D]

Looks like (yet again?) some Chief Officers, and some HO officials do not read their own documents, and are intent on making up their own laws and interpretations! These were never intended to be illegal, it was an error of ommision in the legislation, the HO office and the CPS accepted that in 1997, they circularised all Chief officers and HO with the sensible facts, they state it will be corrected at the next revision of legislation.

Nothing has changed, except people are discovereing old news, looking at part of the facts and jumping to conclusions.

Robin, trust me, I've read and re-read pretty much every communication on this subject and, like everyone else, I'd dearly like full clarification on this issue. As things stand, and according to every recent statement from the Home Office, the Section 5. 1 (ab) statement of the Firearms Act remains valid. I've asked my own advisers this morning and they tell me nothing has changed since the last statement from the Home Office.

Personally, I'd just like a simple, unequivocal, plain-speak statement, directly from the Home Office, that actually puts this one to bed once and for all. I completely understand that, with terrorism, border controls and everything else in the Home Office inbox right now, the clarification of the legality of SA airguns may not be at the top of the HO agenda, but if we push too hard for a 'resolution', it may arrive in a form not best suited to our sport.

Politics is a frustratingly complicated business and we need to play this game to our maximum benefit, as I'm sure you know. Thanks for your valiant attempts to clarify this situation, Robin, and I can only hope it's sorted as soon as possible. My breath is not held, mind.

All the best.

[RichardinDorset]

I see there is still no resolution to this issue!

NSRA are saying that the Home Office has still yet to provide any clear statement...

[Powderfinger]

Still no clarity, is there?
People are still shooting semi-auto airguns openly at comps and clubs without being arrested so it seems that no one has told the the police that the guns are Section 5.
I think that conclusively proves that the CPS would not win a prosecution.