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Thread: LP5/50 now section 5.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powderfinger View Post
    I think that conclusively proves that the CPS would not win a prosecution.
    No, it proves that the CPS don't intend to prosecute, it doesn't prove the outcome of a court case - only one thing would prove that.
    As far as I know, nothing has changed in 19 years apart from there being a rumour that something might change.

    The situation (which hasn't changed since 1997) is this :

    Semi-Auto airguns according to the letter of the Firearms Act are a Section 5 prohibited weapon.

    However... the Home Office and CPS have both said that their inclusion in Section 5 was an oversight and wasn't intentional. As a result the HO and CPS do not intend to prosecute anyone for possession of an SA airgun.

    This following part is hypothetical, because as it stands at the moment, it won't happen... but...

    IF it was brought to court at this time, in all likelihood you would lose the case, because the Judge in most cases would defer to the letter of the law and have no option. There are cases where judges take into account the spirit and intention of the law, but in most cases they go by the letter of the law.
    But the CPS have said and continue to say that they won't take it to court, which is why that bit above is hypothetical.

  2. #32
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    Wasps

    I have noticed a couple of wasp nests in our garden.
    They have given me great pleasure looking at the amazing paper construction of the nest and their aerial acrobatics chasing little flying critters.
    But it has never entered my mind to poke or in any other way disturb the nest.

  3. #33
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    I was just curious as to what prompted Steyr UK to stop selling the LP50, presumably someone at the HO told them to stop selling them in May last year for some reason (other than the obvious..)

  4. #34
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    "IF it was brought to court at this time, in all likelihood you would lose the case, because the Judge in most cases would defer to the letter of the law and have no option. There are cases where judges take into account the spirit and intention of the law, but in most cases they go by the letter of the law.
    But the CPS have said and continue to say that they won't take it to court, which is why that bit above is hypothetical."

    I am not sure that the defendent would lose the case. Judges do not have to just apply the exact wording of the statute. They also have to take into account police and HO guidance, statements about the intention of the law, custom & practice and precedents. I think the CPS know that they might well lose such a case because it might be ruled that previous guidance, statements about the intention of the statute, c&p and precedents indicate that SA airguns are not S5 prohibited weapons. It might take appeals to higher courts to establish this and I would not want to be the guinea pig but I think the CPS would eventually fail in the prosecution and they know it.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powderfinger View Post
    "IF it was brought to court at this time, in all likelihood you would lose the case, because the Judge in most cases would defer to the letter of the law and have no option. There are cases where judges take into account the spirit and intention of the law, but in most cases they go by the letter of the law.
    But the CPS have said and continue to say that they won't take it to court, which is why that bit above is hypothetical."

    I am not sure that the defendent would lose the case. Judges do not have to just apply the exact wording of the statute. They also have to take into account police and HO guidance, statements about the intention of the law, custom & practice and precedents. I think the CPS know that they might well lose such a case because it might be ruled that previous guidance, statements about the intention of the statute, c&p and precedents indicate that SA airguns are not S5 prohibited weapons. It might take appeals to higher courts to establish this and I would not want to be the guinea pig but I think the CPS would eventually fail in the prosecution and they know it.
    There are in fact statistics on this.. in more than 80% of cases the judge will go with the letter of the law instead of applying what they judge to be the intention of the law. There is no precedence on this particular question since it hasn't been to court in the past and judges do not have to take notice of HO or CPS guidance, although you would hope they would take them into consideration.

    If it did go to court, you'd have some good arguments in your defence. However the outcome of a case is certainly not a foregone conclusion - so the fact that nothing has been done so far is certainly not conclusive evidence that you would win a case in court.

    But ultimately It's a moot point, because if the CPS say they don't intend to prosecute (which is still the case) then it will never even go to court in the first place.

  6. #36
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    tinbum is offline Killer Vampire Lesbians on scooters
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    North Yorks police are now confiscating LP5's

    http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....bate-continues
    God rest ye jelly mental men

  7. #37
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    So don't take one to North Yorkshire.
    Not that you would with winter approaching.

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    SA Pistol

    Presumably all the Drulov DU10's and other similar co2 SA pistols will be included in this caper...

    Does anyone want a Zastava GP45?
    Too many guns, or not enough time?

  9. #39
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    First it appears that it is only North Yorkshire police taking action. No other force cares a jot, and neither does the CPS! They are on open sale on sale forums, and in gun shops.

    After 1997 the wasps nest was no problem, the wasps were behaving sensibly and was best left. Now they are stinging people, ignoring this will now just allow it to escalate, time to remove the nest!

    The NSRA is aware and action is in process, the advice from the British Pistol Club is, don't send five shots to Harry (Steyr UK) for repair or service, and don't panic!

    Section 5's, are not totaly banned, there are exemptions, there is an approved procedure for applicants, those who are prospective national team members to qualify by shooting qualifying scores using five shot air pistols, so they are recognised as legal with in the process.

    The NRA has just rebuilt a range at Bisley specifically for section 5's, there are regular competitons at Bisley which use 5 shot air pistols, (its not just Steyrs, all and any multi including most of the "replica type" ones would fall in this category). The NRA has a very effective legal dept, and do act on behalf of members and commonsense.
    Walther KK500 Alutec expert special - Barnard .223 "wilde" in a Walther KK500 Alutec stock, mmm...tasty!! - Keppeler 6 mmBR with Walther grip and wood! I may be a Walther-phile?

  10. #40
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    If you are an RFD and the Police do this you are very much between a rock and a hard place.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modski66 View Post
    Presumably all the Drulov DU10's and other similar co2 SA pistols will be included in this caper...

    Does anyone want a Zastava GP45?
    I think it will only apply to lp5/50 and drulov's as most other 5 shot airguns rely on the revolving magazine principle. In which the magazine is rotated by the trigger pull. I am thinking of the umarex types and rohm.
    Last edited by Jehoolio; 23-10-2016 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Rohm!
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  12. #42
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    Let's not start lists of them on here!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingernut View Post
    Let's not start lists of them on here!
    I'm with you, less said the better, why are people still insisting on poking sticks at wasp's nest's
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehoolio View Post
    I think it will only apply to lp5/50 and drulov's as most other 5 shot airguns rely on the revolving magazine principle. In which the magazine is rotated by the trigger pull. I am thinking of the umarex types and rohm.
    Is that any different to the LP5/50 simply moving the 5 shot bar along using the trigger? Just a matter of shape - round or straight bar. Neither of them, as far as I am aware, load the pellet into the breach, they simply position it.

  15. #45
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    This is escalating.

    A post on the Stirton forum from a well connected and trustworthy poster who deals with these matters for the British Pistol Club, and who advises the NSRA, is saying, that the NSRA have told him they have been told to sieze five shots taken into the LRC at Bisley for use or repair.

    He advises:-

    THAT UNTIL THIS MATTER HAS BEEN RESOLVED WITH THE HOME OFFICE DO NOT TAKE FIVE SHOTS TO THE LRC AT BISLEY.

    I would further advise that it would be un wise to advertise one until this is resolved. Yes it is crazy, but stay calm, and keep quiet!
    Walther KK500 Alutec expert special - Barnard .223 "wilde" in a Walther KK500 Alutec stock, mmm...tasty!! - Keppeler 6 mmBR with Walther grip and wood! I may be a Walther-phile?

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