Webley mark 3 target

[David Makarov]

Webley mark 3 super target,how do they differ from a standard mark3 ?.

Heavy barrel ?
Factory fitted sights ?
Grip compartment
No rear sight rail ?

How do they differ year to year?
Only the last marked super target on the barrel?

Many thanks David

[Troubledshooter]

The extremely rare 'Prototype' Supertarget was the only one not to have Supertarget roll impressed on the cylinder.
The first pattern had a Parker Hale 17B aperture sight along with a PH foresight with interchangeable elements and an element box screwed to the underside of the palm grip, whilst the second pattern had an Anschutz aperture sight and foresight, once again with interchangeable elements but no element box.
None of these, including the prototype, had milling for the standard rear sight.
Chis Thrale's excellent book on Webley Air Rifles gives an excellent history of the Mk.III series and all other Webley Air Rifles.

[David Makarov]

Fantastic information as usual,have ordered the book!,thank you.

[aimless]

As troubledshooter mentioned:

look here:

http://sta.sh/21i7kkzx6vnu?edit=1

But I guess, a (recoil-?)plate at the stock and a ring at the p&h front sight is missing????

atb Jochen

[flogger]

With ref.to this thread. I have in my collection 3 supertargets.ser. No.F5761..177,1975.Fitted P/H.17B no centre sight,later
front second pattern foresight, page 79 Thrales book,sight elements in box, no stock canister for sights.supertarget stamped across action. Serial No. A6073. .177 1971.new in orig. card carton and packaging as page 67 Thrales book.
P/H.16M rear sight [not 17b] no centre v sight. front s/ elements in stock canister and s/t stamped on action.
Serial No. A14..177. 1969.SQ. tap.P/H 17B. rearsight, ramped P/H foresight sight elements in stock canister.Plus straight
scope rail fitted parallel type, [not dumbell].
As said before A6073.would have 17B sight but nothing chucked out so to speak, the 16m is brand new never been fitted
in seperate bag with fitting screws. f5761 was bought from Mike Dodds of Birmingham some years ago and fitted in a home made wooden case.
Sort that lot out, John m. Brian, Gavin ect.
Roly.

[Troubledshooter]

If 'A14' has a straight three spot weld scope rail, how can it have 'Supertarget' roll impressed on the cylinder, and if it hasn't, it's not a Supertarget. It's far too late to be a 'Prototype'.
A6073 could have been specifically ordered from the factory with a PH16M instead of the 17b.

[flogger]

If 'A14' has a straight three spot weld scope rail, how can it have 'Supertarget' roll impressed on the cylinder, and if it hasn't, it's not a Supertarget. It's far too late to be a 'Prototype'.
A6073 could have been specifically ordered from the factory with a PH16M instead of the 17b.

Look at text no supertarget on action just scope rail. But p/h front and rear sights and canister for sights in stock as
Supertarget, Full ramp p/h. front sight.Could have been a special one off order do you think.Its in ex. order throughout.
Regards Roly.

[Troubledshooter]

Look at text no supertarget on action just scope rail. But p/h front and rear sights and canister for sights in stock as
Supertarget, Full ramp p/h. front sight.Could have been a special one off order do you think.Its in ex. order throughout.
Regards Roly.

Hi Roly,

Your original post mentioned 3 Supertargets, but 'A14' is not a Supertarget.
Webley would supply and fit whatever sights a customer specified, so I would think someone wanted the Supertarget sights and element box without the expense of purchasing a Supertarget, or perhaps they wanted to mount a scope, (big mistake) so wanted the scope rail, who knows.
Most people wanted a PH16m aperture sight fitted to the standard MK.III, as it can be moved out of the way so the standard Mk.III sights can be used.
I had all the Supertargets including a Prototype, but only have the first pattern with PH sights remaining.
If you need a PH element box let me know as I have a few.

[flogger]

Hi Roly,

Your original post mentioned 3 Supertargets, but 'A14' is not a Supertarget.
Webley would supply and fit whatever sights a customer specified, so I would think someone wanted the Supertarget sights and element box without the expense of purchasing a Supertarget, or perhaps they wanted to mount a scope, (big mistake) so wanted the scope rail, who knows.
Most people wanted a PH16m aperture sight fitted to the standard MK.III, as it can be moved out of the way so the standard Mk.III sights can be used.
I had all the Supertargets including a Prototype, but only have the first pattern with PH sights remaining.
If you need a PH element box let me know as I have a few.

Many thanks for your expert knowledge, i thought that i had a good working knowledge of guns but have to bow to your
superior expertise.
ROLY.

[Josie & John]

Hi Roly,

As Troubledshooter says, PH 16M and 17B aperture sights were a Webley stock item that could also be fitted to standard Mark 3s. Parker Hale catalogues also stocked the FS22 foresights as an option on Mark 3s, so your rifle is not all that unusual. Indeed Guy has recently sold an early Mk3 with both aperture and tunnel foresight and I have a couple in my collection too.

John

[Troubledshooter]

Many thanks for your expert knowledge, i thought that i had a good working knowledge of guns but have to bow to your
superior expertise.
ROLY.

My main collecting interest has always been Webley products, along with a few post war BSA's, so I've picked up a bit of Webley knowledge along the way. Ask me about many others and I probably wouldn't have a clue.
If you are keen on Webley Air Rifles you should get Chris Thrale's excellent book on the subject, 'Webley Air Rifles 1925 - 2005'.

[MDriskill]

Thrale's book (which I cannot recommend highly enough!) notes that some early Supertargets may have been fitted with the Parker-Hale PH 16M sight, but of course the vast majority of the first variation had the more elaborate PH 17B. The neat sight element holder on these guns was also made by Parker-Hale, and matched to the diameter of the PH sight inserts.

An interesting point is that both Parker-Hale sights fit the very same mounting holes! One can easily swap them back and forth on the same rifle. Webley's would provide the PH 16M mounted as an option, for most of the Mk 3's production run. Parker-Hale themselves offered the Mk 3 through their catalog; I have their no. 67 catalog (late 1950's) which makes clear that they could fit either the PH 16M, or PH 17B, to the standard gun.

Supertargets do have a heavier barrel, with the thicker contour especially visible near the muzzle, and of course a tunnel-type target front sight--PH FS 22A on the first variant, Anschutz on the second. As already noted, most have "SUPERTARGET" stamped prominently on top of the receiver tube, and no provision for the standard rear sight.

I have four Mk 3's with aperture sights; dates per Thrale:

16494 (early 1950's): .22 cal standard gun, earlier variant with slender stock, and what appears to be a factory-mounted PH 16M. Very nicely tuned by its previous owner, and a truly fun shooter.

19207 (mid 1950's): .22 cal standard gun, which must have some stories to tell! Per Thrale it "should" have the early stock, but in fact has the post-1957 curvier style stock bearing a different serial number, in very interesting pale wood. It came with both the standard open rear sight, and a PH 17B. The latter is mounted in correct position, but with non-standard screws, so is likely not factory or Parker-Hale work.

A2577 (1970): .177 cal first-variant Supertarget. PH sights and element holder. This gun was a sales prototype sent from Webley to Harrington & Richardson here in the US (H&R imported Webley air pistols for many years, and manufactured Webley automatic firearm pistols under license). This beauty was bar none my luckiest find at an airgun show ever--looking largely un-used, in an H&R box, and with the original factory sticker still on the action. A photo essay of it can be seen here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/40594...rget%26quot%3B

B8841 (1974): .177 cal second-variant Supertarget. Anschutz sights, mounted to short dovetail rails. I just got it yesterday! An interesting detail of this gun is that the Anschutz rear sight is a rare-ish variant which has the top of the base drilled and tapped for a locking thumbscrew (similar to the classic Weihrauch match sight). But when installed on the Supertarget, the thumbscrew is omitted, and its hole neatly aligned over the Mk 3's trigger-adjusting screw! Someone had their thinking cap on that day, LOL...

[Josie & John]

[QUOTE=MDriskill;

B8841 (1974): .177 cal second-variant Supertarget. Anschutz sights, mounted to short dovetail rails. I just got it yesterday! An interesting detail of this gun is that the Anschutz rear sight is a rare-ish variant which has the top of the base drilled and tapped for a locking thumbscrew (similar to the classic Weihrauch match sight). But when installed on the Supertarget, the thumbscrew is omitted, and its hole neatly aligned over the Mk 3's trigger-adjusting screw! Someone had their thinking cap on that day, LOL...[/QUOTE]

Hi Mike,

Well done. You have an Anschutz 6706 aperture sight rather than a standard 6705. Both were fitted to Supertargets and I know of two others. They were intended for the Anschutz 54 and 250.

I also added an Anschutz sighted Supertarget to the collection yesterday, which is fitted with the 6705. Coincidentaly it was made during the same week as a PH sighted Supertarget I own, suggesting both sights were being made concurrently in January 1974.

Kind regards,

John

[flogger]

My main collecting interest has always been Webley products, along with a few post war BSA's, so I've picked up a bit of Webley knowledge along the way. Ask me about many others and I probably wouldn't have a clue.
If you are keen on Webley Air Rifles you should get Chris Thrale's excellent book on the subject, 'Webley Air Rifles 1925 - 2005'.

Thanks i do have a copy of C Thrales Webley book and also G Bruce pistol book,and i must add the Webley Story by DOWELL ser. no 255 which is a superb read.Ihave just unearthed a copy of P/Hale catolog No62a which looks a bit 1960s with the fs22 sights on page 84. Another very interesting catolog.

[Troubledshooter]

Some interesting contributions to this thread regarding Mk.III Supertargets.

I had 44020 which was a 'prototype' Supertarget without the roll impressed name on the cylinder, and without the rearsight milling, with a PH 17b aperture sight and PH foresight with elements in the box screwed to the base of the pistol grip. This rifle was in superb condition.

I still have Supertarget A8422 with PH 17b etc., also in superb condition. This is the first one I purchased and I will be sad to see it go, but go it must as part of my collection disposal. NOW SOLD

I also had Supertarget B8860 which was the Anschutz sighted model, also in superb condition.