Expected accuracy at 50y with spring gun.

[TonyL]

Wish I had a 50 yard range to shoot on

(Brian's looks great in this months AGW article, but a bit too far for me)

Yep, a 50 yards indoor range would be awesome, Jon.

I'm itching to get to Brian's as soon as I possibly can.

If you ever fancied a road trip oop North, we could make a day / weekend of it sometime?

[Harrympope]

I guess I will rephrase the question--

On an average day at 50 yards with a 177 caliber Spring Gun if a person shot ten 5 shot groups what would a good average be. I'm not talking about picking a windless day or shooting indoors.no flyers discounted.

[Shed tuner]

Make it a wide ditch Jon, for all of those massive groups you'll be shooting

...strikes Brian from Christmas card list...

[Shed tuner]

I guess I will rephrase the question--

On an average day at 50 yards with a 177 caliber Spring Gun if a person shot ten 5 shot groups what would a good average be. I'm not talking about picking a windless day or shooting indoors.no flyers discounted.

I'd be dissapointed if more than 1.5"

However, even tiny variations in wind will have a massive effect, so that's by far the most significant factor. In fact, with any appreciable wind around, springer vs PCP is irrelevant - it'll be all down to the wind.

[bozzer]

It almost now starts becoming a pointless question with pointless answers.

Indoors, rested with ideal pellets and a decent shooter, you'll get most pellets under an inch with a decent springer and technique. You'll always get the odd rogue pellet that will fly, so that will open any larger group up at that range.

The FT guys like Bri aren't in the business of shooting tight groups. They are in the business of winning FT comps, so that means beating the next best springer shooter on that day, whilst shooting at targets out to 55 yards with 40mm kills at that max range. Long term it's accumulating the best scores over a series.

Hunters should be in the business of limiting their range to that which they can put virtually all ( humanly possible ) pellets inside an inch ... in the wind that they will allow themselves to hunt in.

So who does that leave?

Tuners who are seeing if their tune has improved accuracy? Plinkers at the clubs who sit shooting at spinners rested on a beanbag at 50 yards?

Any sort of decent wind or variation in wind/angle or shooting position and your 1 inch groups ( even for Bri and Co ) go right out of the window.

[Harrympope]

To the above post. It's not a pointless question with pointless answers. It's about honesty.

I've only been shooting airguns for about five years. I have competed in bench rest cast bullet competitions for 20 +years. If someone was to ask me what kind of group you would need to be seeing to be competitive in a particular discipline I could give him an answer rather straightforward.
Many people in this thread have given very honest great answers and I appreciate that thank you. I just wanted some sort of a benchmark to see how I'm doing since we do not shoot groups with airguns here as competitions at 50 yards.

[bozzer]

Harry

I think it's moved into pointless and not just honesty. I'll try and explain why I think so ...

There's a very familiar path that springer men travel along. We prefer the extra challenge of shooting a spring rifle. It feels more rewarding when we shoot well. After one has been shooting a springer for some time and our groups have gone from shotgun to something more reasonable that little voice kicks in in our heads ...

" Just how good am I compared to other springer men? ".

So we ask the question about what typical group sizes do other shooters get at a certain range ( 50 yards is always quite popular ).

I've certainly been down that route. So one is really trying to find out what the typically decent springer man is capable of.

This 50 yards then ...

We are talking 0.177 12fp air rifle. So using a light to medium weight pellet of say 7.9gr to 8.4gr ( so Crosman Prem or JSB Exact etc ) we are talking muzzle velocities around 800 fps. At 50 to 55 yards these pellets are really starting to slow down and the trajectory is really starting to dip. The velocity will now be around 580 - 600fps and the pellets dropping like bricks. So at this range any variance in stability at the muzzle will now be exaggerated and the pellets ( especially the poorer ones to start with ) will be getting really unstable and wobbling. So tiny variations in weight or imperfections pellet to pellet will now start to open up groups, no matter how consistent the shooter has released each shot. If we now add in some wind at this range ... even just 5mph ... then that wind's affect on those less stable pellets will be quite dramatic ... again opening up groups.

So at 50 to 55 yards there are other factors, even in no wind, but certainly in some wind, which are beyond the control of the shooter.

This average group thing ...

I'm not sure that is a great way to measure accuracy. It may be best to say what is the average poi away from the desired poi. So this is more like a circular scoring system on a paper target. So you may get a shooter that shoots 10 shots at 50 yards. Out of those shots 9 pellets hit within 7mm of the intended poi, on either side. So the average distance he's missed by, in those 9, may be 5mm. The 10th shot hits 20mm away. So take that 20mm into the equation and the average distance from the intended poi has gone up to say 6.5mm. So still very good. If you ask that person what their group was it will be 20mm + 7mm on the other side ... so 27mm ( over an inch ). That doesn't sound too brilliant as opposed to average distance from target over 10 shots being 6.5mm.

Another springer shooter may have all 10 pellets landing 13mm away from the intended poi in all directions. That's as close as he gets in all of those 10 shots. His group is 26mm. Has he shot better than the 1st guy?

If you said ok, you've got your best batch of pellets and you are shooting indoors in no wind at 50 yards. Choose your position and shoot some 5 shot groups at paper. A lot of decent springer guys will put all 5 inside an inch a lot of the time. The top guys like Bri, Steve P, Nick M, Neil T, Rob F, and I'm sure plenty of top USA springer FT lads, will put the 5 inside an inch most of the time. That would be with their FT rigs and in a pretty solid, well practised, FT sitting stance.

So in ideal conditions, with no wind, the answer to your question is an inch. Shooters a step down from those guys will probably achieve 1 1/2 inches a lot of the time. I'm probably in that bunch somewhere.

Real world ...

In 2014 in New Zealand in the FT World Champs the top PCP score was 138 out of 150 ( 3 days at 50 targets per day ). So that's 12 missed targets. Second and third scores were 136.

Same year Bri won the Recoil with 125/150. So that's 25 missed targets.

In 2015 in Lithuania the top PCP score was 144/150 ( Russian lad scored 48 on all 3 days ). So that's 6 missed targets. The second and third scores were 143 and 142.

Same year Steve P won the recoil with 121/150. So that's 29 missed targets. Steve scored a fabulous 45/50 on day 3 to win by 1 point. However, on day 1 he scored 36/50. Ten other springer shooters matched or beat him on day 1. So on day 1 he missed 14 targets.

Some of the targets will have been positionals ( kneel/stand ) and some will have been reducers. There will have been quite a few targets that were missed that were 40mm at 50 yards plus ( or equivalent ).

These guys are as good as it gets with springers. I'd bet that in a windless situation they would keep stacking pellets inside an inch ( 25mm ) at 50 yards.

When you add in some wind, and some match nerves, and various angles to the wind and various angles to the targets that 1 inch grouping capability at 50 yards, in no wind, isn't the entire story.

So once you rephrased your question and included windy days and flyers ( I've taken the liberty of including comp courses ) ... added to the info that I gave about this distance ( 50y ) being at the limit of the 0.177 12fp pellet's stability, it does start to become a pointless question. No one can really give you a definite figure.

If you asked ...

" What is your typical group c-t-c, in your most stable position, with a 0.177 12fp springer, at 35 yards, in a maximum of 5mph 90 degree wind? "

... People could probably be more specific and say cloverleaf groups of less than 12mm c-t-c.

If I were you then that's what I'd be aiming for with my springer. If you are consistently getting that then there isn't much wrong with your rifle/pellet combo or your springer shooting.

Beyond that, especially outdoors, in a drop of wind, and especially around that 50 yard plus area, there are too many variables outside the shooter's control, for people to give specific figures ( in my opinion ).

[RobF]

To the above post. It's not a pointless question with pointless answers. It's about honesty.

I've only been shooting airguns for about five years. I have competed in bench rest cast bullet competitions for 20 +years. If someone was to ask me what kind of group you would need to be seeing to be competitive in a particular discipline I could give him an answer rather straightforward.
Many people in this thread have given very honest great answers and I appreciate that thank you. I just wanted some sort of a benchmark to see how I'm doing since we do not shoot groups with airguns here as competitions at 50 yards.

Honestly Harry, what Brian said. Inside a £1 coin at 50yds. Quite a few times i've been a lot tighter than that in practice. Quite a few times I've been worse. When I am I go to great lengths as to find out why that is. Indoors I can rule out wind, so outdoors I also do when shooting groups, unless I'm working on that specificly. Most of the time I'm shooting groups is because I want to check the gun and me are doing their bit... once I know they are, i'll be moving on to other things and using that group size as a benchmark to see how those other things are working out. If I start seeing something odd, knowing that I can group better I have a benchmark that I can say that as a whole I should be able to achieve. I've been shooting long enough to know when it's me and not it, and when it's it and not me... but that has taken many years to sort out... first 5, it was all the gun, the next, it was all me... now i know 9/10 when it's which.

Typically if i'm working on things indoors, i'll be shooting paper at 25m and looking to place 5 or 10 shots inside a 10mm paper target, with the hole not breaking that 10mm line. I'll do that for 50-100 shots then maybe move on to another position. I might dip out now and then, but i'll move on trying to work out why that was. The tightest 5 shot group I have for a springer indoors at 25m from sitting is 2mm CTC. Somewhere i've got a photo. But I might be checking for POI changes or how adjustments to the rifle or hold affect things. So outdoors, having shot say 10 or so with just a few mm of vertical spread at 55, i'll move onto the course where i'll be testing everything in combination to simulate competition issues I may face.

Outdoors on my test range, i may hammer 250-500 shots in a session. But i'll still look to deliver my shots inside £1... unless it's windy, in which case i won't bother as reading the wind on a range is not what i'm in competition for.

I'm not sure how group size in benchrest works... is that because it's never windy or is that because it's an indoor competition, or because the round doesn't take much wind? With 12ft-lb, 10mph is 6" of movement roughly at 50yds. So there's a lot of variable considering we'll shoot from zero right up to and past 20mph, and aiming 12" off the target is not unknown. So I don't see that X size group determines your competitiveness, because X size group may be no-where on a still day, and it might be top dog on a windy day.

[rockdrill]

I'm not sure how group size in benchrest works... is that because it's never windy or is that because it's an indoor competition, or because the round doesn't take much wind?

I can't comment about all forms of benchrest as I haven't shot all of them.

Where I have shot it with .22rf and air rifle when in South Africa, you have a target with multiple diagrams, one shot per diagram. Obviously aiming to get the highest possible score / centre of diagram. This was shot on an outdoor range, air at 25m, RF at 50m with wind flags around.

CF BR I believe works on group size at distance from 100 yards upwards.


In terms of an answer to the OP's question, I would look to group well within a full size FT kill zone at 50 yards. If I achieve better - bonus - worse, more practice needed.

[RobF]

I can't comment about all forms of benchrest as I haven't shot all of them.

Where I have shot it with .22rf and air rifle when in South Africa, you have a target with multiple diagrams, one shot per diagram. Obviously aiming to get the highest possible score / centre of diagram. This was shot on an outdoor range, air at 25m, RF at 50m with wind flags around.

CF BR I believe works on group size at distance from 100 yards upwards.


In terms of an answer to the OP's question, I would look to group well within a full size FT kill zone at 50 yards. If I achieve better - bonus - worse, more practice needed.

Sorry Dale, what I meant was I don't understand how picking out X size group and saying where you'll stand in Benchrest works... because I assume that conditions change.

[Matt]

For me with a springer I am happy if they're all within 40mm at 55yards, same with a pcp if honest.

I am not very good at groups at all, I tend to get bored after the second shot, but when setting up I tend to shoot 10shot groups and treat the centre as where I expect the pellet to land with those clicks at that range.

Matt