Expected accuracy at 50y with spring gun.

[Harrympope]

I'm not quite sure of the mentality of Shooters on your side of the pond but here in the US everybody likes to claim one hole groups at 50 yards with their favorite 17 Springer.

For me if I'm shooting an inch 5 shot groups I'm quite happy but will occasionally get some in the half inch range. When I'm shooting from a kneeling unsupported field position if I get under 1.5 inches I'm quite happy.

What is acceptable for you guys in general? Not the best group ever but what you consider a good 17 caliber 12 foot pounds Spring Gun avge at 50 yards?

[TORNADOS7]

Not sure really as I suspect most of us on this side of the pond only really concern ourselves at the most with sub 40yds, I watched a video on YouTube earlier '.22 vs .22' where a 'Walther LGU' out shoots a 'Ruger 10/22' at 50yds, I would say the group was probably 3/4 inch apart from one flyer, the 'Ruger' on the other hand was probably 1.5inch, at 50yds I'd be fairly happy with a sub 1 inch group although I'd not be overly impressed by it !...

Ps, that would be .22cal...

[Brian.Samson]

I expect to be able to completely cover a group with a £1 coin at 55 yards. I don't discount shots as 'flyers', I think that's just kidding yourself.

[air-tech]

With a springer, less than 1" is good going.

The reality is that many people shoot "groups" that are way too small in number of shots and then claim nonsensical group sizes. What they have is a small sample, and the smaller the sample the smaller the size of the "group" and the outlandish accuracy claims that follow. It's all to do with a misunderstanding of statistics and randomness.

Personally think any group of less than 10 shots is pretty worthless as an accuracy test, and as Brian says, or a modification thereof, flyers should only be counted as such if it is very evident that something seriously wrong has happened, i.e. a pulled shot, perhaps a gust of wind out of no-where, etc, not as a convenient means of condensing a realistic group size into something from the realms of fantasy.

[Harrympope]

With a springer, less than 1" is good going.

The reality is that many people shoot "groups" that are way too small in number of shots and then claim nonsensical group sizes. What they have is a small sample, and the smaller the sample the smaller the size of the "group" and the outlandish accuracy claims that follow. It's all to do with a misunderstanding of statistics and randomness.

Personally think any group of less than 10 shots is pretty worthless as an accuracy test, and as Brian says, or a modification thereof, flyers should only be counted as such if it is very evident that something seriously wrong has happened, i.e. a pulled shot, perhaps a gust of wind out of no-where, etc, not as a convenient means of condensing a realistic group size into something from the realms of fantasy.

I agree you can't just call it a flyer because it didn't land in a group. As far as anything but 10-shot group being worthless I'll have to disagree. I believe multiple 5 shot groups are fairly good representation of accuracy. I think 10 shot groups the human factor and changing conditions becomes more prevalent and the mechanical accuracy of the gun isn't generally the issue.

[Harrympope]

Thanks for all the replies it sounds like I'm right in there with my expectations for standard power .177 at 50 yards.

I once posted a question about an HW 30 .177 on a usa forum with a color in the title . and an a gentleman responded with "always shoots under 1" and often under 1/2" in good conditions all the time at 50 yards".... REALLY!!! Two shot groups?
You fellows over here seem to be a bit more honest.

[air-tech]

I agree you can't just call it a flyer because it didn't land in a group. As far as anything but 10-shot group being worthless I'll have to disagree. I believe multiple 5 shot groups are fairly good representation of accuracy. I think 10 shot groups the human factor and changing conditions becomes more prevalent and the mechanical accuracy of the gun isn't generally the issue.

Here's where a misunderstanding of "groups", statistics, probabilities, randomness and sample sizes takes over. And over optimism.

If a gun is capable of shooting a 1.5" group (lets keep things simple here) - this means that if you were to aim at a fixed central point, a pellet or bullet could land randomly at absolutely any point within a circle of diameter 1.5" centred around the aim point.

Anywhere. Anywhere at all.

You take another shot.

As above...

This second pellet or bullet could land randomly at absolutely any point within a circle of diameter 1.5" centred around the aim point.

Anywhere.

And another shot... again see above, ad infinitum.

Now the mistake people make is that they think that the gun, or the pellet, has any memory at all as to where the previous pellet has gone. Hence, they also think that if they fire (say) 5 shots, they will be evenly spread out within that 1.5" circle.

This is a complete fallacy. The reality is that they are just as likely to be perfectly evenly distributed as they are to be passing through the same hole, wherever it may be.

The truth is simple. Refer previous. Each individual shot of the 5 shots could land anywhere. Randomness dictates that with a small number of shots - 5 is a small number - there is quite a high probability of having 3 or 4 of them clumping together, with just one or two slightly distant.

This does not mean that the gun is now shooting 1" groups rather than 1.5", it just means that you need to shoot a hell of a lot more to get any form of reasonably even spread that can serve as a useful group size indication. The more shots fired, the more randomness and probability work together to give a more realistic, more even spread.

You can see this all the time on shooting forums. Someone puts up a multiple-target card, claiming (say) 1/2" groups, with the mandatory "flyers". You then do actually see 1/2" (mostly) 5-shot groups on the 6-target card.

With a huge caveat.

The group on one target is offset (say) 1/2" to the left of the POA. The group on another is offset 1/2" to the right of that target's POA... the group on the third target is 1/2" down from POA... you get the picture.

But the shooter claims 1/2" groups.

Not likely. The more accurate representation would be had by overlaying all those individual targets around the central POA. But that would be disappointing, no bragging rights to be had there... so the 5 shot group is popular as a measure of accuracy...

Which is why competitions are scored by distance from the POA, and not group size, which sorts out reality from the wishful thinking...

[ashf9999]

I expect to be able to completely cover a group with a £1 coin at 55 yards. I don't discount shots as 'flyers', I think that's just kidding yourself.

£1 coin - that's about 7/8" for our American friend. With a spring gun at sub-12ft/lbs (UK limit without a firearms licence) that would be good.

[TonyL]

£1 coin - that's about 7/8" for our American friend. With a spring gun at sub-12ft/lbs (UK limit without a firearms licence) that would be good.

The correct rifle / pellet combination will perform to this standard.

Most shooters (myself most definitely included) can't, especially repeatedly, which is what counts.

Brian, as per his user tag, has the correct credentials.

[lensman57]

I shot a 3/8" 5 shots group this afternoon at AIR shooting range @ 42 yards, using my AA Prosport .177 and Weirauch F and T special pellets (same as the H and N FTT).
I then had two more goes and I couldn't better less than 1" five shots groups. Two or three were touching each other and then two or three about an inch off the center. The gun is firing the F and Ts @ 780 ft/s or about 11.6 Ft.lbs.

A.G

[RobF]

I expect to be able to completely cover a group with a £1 coin at 55 yards. I don't discount shots as 'flyers', I think that's just kidding yourself.

Agreed. Discounting flyers is ignoring an issue no matter what the reason for it.

Also 5 shot groups are pretty pointless.

[Jonjon79]

Flyers are real - I know. I shot 10 of them into an 8 inch group while standing with my .22 Tx

[TORNADOS7]

Agreed. Discounting flyers is ignoring an issue no matter what the reason for it.

Also 5 shot groups are pretty pointless.

No, no, no mate, you've got it all wrong a 1 shot group is pointless, 5 is a reasonable gauge of what's happening, 10 shots is just wasting lead !...

[Sallyannsnow]

50 yards ?!.......I don't take my dog that far for a walk !

[rapidresponse1]

40 yards is my limit with a sub 12lb air arms pro sport in 22