Expected accuracy at 50y with spring gun.

[sharky]

If I can get all my shots to group at less than 1 1/2" shooting supported and 2" freehand at 50yrd's with a springer I'm happy,

[Harrympope]

If I can get all my shots to group at less than 1 1/2" shooting supported and 2" freehand at 50yrd's with a springer I'm happy,

If my offhand groups were only a half-inch bigger than my rested groups I would be very happy.

[bozzer]

Another 'Fisherman's Tale' thread.

I'm not sure what's on test/show ...

The accuracy of a springer, the quality of a tune, the ability of the shooter, or the bulge in the shooter's underpants?

Interesting that it's asking expected accuracy of a springer. It would be interesting to see what the differences would be between the same shooters' claimed accuracy with a pcp and then their springer.

The group thing ... 5 shots or 10 shots etc. Claimed accuracy, for me, is the accuracy that a shooter is willing to put his house on if he were randomly tested. Everything else is just a matter of chance as Air-Tech has been trying to explain. So all the claims of ... " I shot a X shot group of blah de blah " is all b0ll0x. We've all had wonderful groups at some point.

It's the ... me and you in a field with a paper target at 50 yards ... you shoot 10 pellets at that target now and let's measure it. It's not ... what's the best group of 5 that you've shot in the last 12 months.

I asked a while back what the typical group at 55 yards would be for a decent FT shooter sitting. I think it was Conor, who has been a World Champ, European Champ and has just won the NEFTA Classic, who said that a realistic answer would be anything consistently under 1 inch/25mm. So if you are getting consistently under 1 inch groups with your springer at 50 yards ... even rested ... you are doing very well.

Achieving under 1 1/2 inches unsupported kneeling at 50 yards and you are doing very well indeed.

I can do both of those on a good day, just me and my dog and a flask of tea, down the range with little wind. I wouldn't dare say I can do that if someone put me to the test and said there was £100 on it. I'm just not that consistent.

This is all of course, in respect of shooting competitions or taking shots at live animals, all just pointless group talk.

I've commented a few times lately on springer tuning threads about real term accuracy gained by a top end tune. It's interesting that Bri has made comments that suggest that he's very impressed with his latest tune. I'm presuming that's a TX and, from other threads, I'm presuming it's long stroking, and I'll also allow myself to presume that Jon has had something to do with it. Bri posted that group photo ( which I can't open ... scabby old laptop ) and commented that his 'normal' expected group would be under an inch or under a £1 coin FT sitting at 55 yards. It probably takes someone as good with a springer as Bri to be able to appreciate any extra gain that a lot of tuning will give. I'd be interested to know what improvement that is over groups that he would have expected to achieve with his older tunes. I'd have thought that he would have been achieving those type of groups with his rifle in previous states of tune. So is the new tune giving better accuracy, or a better sight picture on firing, or is it easier to achieve that accuracy with the new tune? More details Bri please. I hope I don't come across as anti tuning. I'm very interested in all the tuning. I would love to see some real life evidence that there is a gain to be had. I still reckon that it takes someone that is very very good at springer shooting to be able to notice any difference but it's interesting to see that there may be evidence that it can improve results.

[rapidresponse1]

40 yards is my limit with a sub 12lb air arms pro sport in 22

[bozzer]

A 40 yard group at 50 yards? Even in 0.22 you should get better than that fella. Check the stock screws are tight and the scope's on the right way around.

[Brian.Samson]

...
I've commented a few times lately on springer tuning threads about real term accuracy gained by a top end tune. It's interesting that Bri has made comments that suggest that he's very impressed with his latest tune. I'm presuming that's a TX and, from other threads, I'm presuming it's long stroking, and I'll also allow myself to presume that Jon has had something to do with it. Bri posted that group photo ( which I can't open ... scabby old laptop ) and commented that his 'normal' expected group would be under an inch or under a £1 coin FT sitting at 55 yards. It probably takes someone as good with a springer as Bri to be able to appreciate any extra gain that a lot of tuning will give. I'd be interested to know what improvement that is over groups that he would have expected to achieve with his older tunes. I'd have thought that he would have been achieving those type of groups with his rifle in previous states of tune. So is the new tune giving better accuracy, or a better sight picture on firing, or is it easier to achieve that accuracy with the new tune? More details Bri please. I hope I don't come across as anti tuning. I'm very interested in all the tuning. I would love to see some real life evidence that there is a gain to be had. I still reckon that it takes someone that is very very good at springer shooting to be able to notice any difference but it's interesting to see that there may be evidence that it can improve results.

I'm not sure what it's like for other springer shooters, but for me it's hard work! I have to go through a mental checklist of everything before I pull the trigger - are my hands and fingers in the correct place, am I putting just the right amount of pressure on the cheek piece, is my finger on exactly the right place on the trigger, is it making the correct angle with the blade, is my natural point of aim correct or am I twisting slightly to get my crosshairs on target.. etc etc.. It only takes the slightest lapse in concentration and I have a 'Flyer'

If I get all of that right, I can put in tighter groups with my springer than I ever could with any of the PCP's I've owned and I've owned a few really good ones.

For me that's the difference between a springer and a PCP, it's a lot harder to be accurate with a springer than it is with a PCP, but it's a lot more rewarding.

I overheard Ian Taylor telling someone about the old days of FT when he was shooting a springer and he was saying the same thing as me - he had a mental checklist of exactly where and how he had to hold his springer.. So at least I must be doing something right if I'm following in the footsteps of the likes of Ian (who is mega!)

The thing that got me excited about the experimental tune was that it was less of an effort to put that group in and the gun feels lovely to shoot - it's actually hard to put it down now, I'm having that "Just one more shot and I'll put it in the bag" feeling now

So what does that tune give me over the previous tune ( a 77mm stroke with an LGU seal and lightened piston ). Well.. it's more enjoyable to shoot and a bit less effort to be accurate with - that makes it less mentally draining to practice with and means I can put more practice time in. Previously I had to put in say 15 minutes of practice, take a rest and repeat.. now I can stretch that out of 30 minutes which has effectively doubled my practice time. Practice is what helps with a springer and the more I can put in the luckier I get when shooting a competition.

As to groups - I'm sure it's perfectly possible to put in a group at 55 yards of X shots that you'd struggle fit a .22 pellet through with a .177 springer. It would take a lot of effort or a lot of luck or a healthy combination of both, but for me it's not something I need to do, so I don't bother. I'd imagine it's the same for most people. If you're a hunter and you're using a springer (or a PCP for that matter) then ideally all you need to be able to do reliably is put in a sub 1" group at your max distance and that's plenty good enough to make humane kills. For FT and HFT being able to put in sub 1" groups reliably at max distance is good enough, so why put in all of that extra effort to shoot smaller groups when it's not going to give you anything more than bragging rights on the internet? There's a shortcut to that if that's your goal and that's to just bullshit about it.

When I first picked up a springer with the goal of shooting it well in competition (about 4 years ago now) my average group size was about 3" at 55 yards. That wasn't a 3" scatter pattern, it was probably a couple of groups an inch apart and a few 'flyers' to open things up a bit. After 3 months of daily practice I learned how to reduce the number of flyers and tighten the group. Even that group I posted up earlier you could say had a flyer that went high, otherwise it would have been a 1/4" group. That's why I don't discount flyers, in fact it's the flyers that I'm most interested in. I have a flyer and I go through a process of trying to figure out what I did differently to make that flyer, then add that to my checklist of something I should try not to do again - it's a big list now! Shooting a springer is hard, being consistently good with one would take more time than I've got spare.

So the short answer to the original question is - I expect my average group size to be as good as I need it to be to achieve what I'm trying to achieve. For me, sub £1 at 55 yards from FT sitting position is as good as I need it to be to enjoy an FT competition and have a reasonable chance of taking home a trophy at the end of it.

[bozzer]

A great reply Bri and thanks for posting it.

I like the bit about the tune making it a little easier to achieve what you are after. That's exactly why I started messing about with the second 25mm 77k. My original comp 77 would shoot amazing groups if I did everything bang on ... but as you say ... it's draining trying to get everything 99% right all the time. So I wanted to just try and have a rifle that was still tough to shoot, and if I made a mess of it I would still miss, but it would be just slightly more forgiving if I was just a tad off on the odd shot.

Thanks again ... I enjoyed reading that.

[ZaksGod]

a few years ago now when i still shot airguns i could group on average about a 10p coin sized groups at 50y.this was with a prosport and then later a tuned hw80 both in .22 cal with light pellets.those groups were just about an inch so as stated untill you make a hole any pellet could land a fair distance from the next .just for the record when i shoot my .223 i only shoot 3 shots to make a group

[oliver13]

I shoot in groups of 5, because anymore & the target is getting too chewed up to score accurately. If I wanted to check my shooting in groups of 10 I'd just shoot 2 groups of 5.

[TORNADOS7]

I shoot in groups of 5, because anymore & the target is getting too chewed up to score accurately. If I wanted to check my shooting in groups of 10 I'd just shoot 2 groups of 5.

This one gets a 👍 From me !...

[racerkart]

Not got much to do with a modern rifles accuracy but rather the pellet combo and shooter would be the biggest variables. All this talk of 15 minimum 32 std sample size for a capability analysis in minitab sounds dull and I wont ever put 32 shots into a rabbit to do this. Although in six sigma and the AIAG blue book then yes so do we then say as a minimum a rifles accuracy can only be verified by 3 different shooters each firing 15 shots into 3 targets that must be treat as one with a result of less than 20%SV? We know the variables will be part to part (pellet) and person. Bit overkill aint it? Imo 5 shots at 25m within 1" was the RAF marksman award in the Air Cadets and must hold some value. I do ten generally on pcp but still use 5 on spring. As for at 50yds its sorting out who buys the first round in a final challenge of the day at the range.

[Andy001]

It's funny what Brian said above..(very insightful btw)...not sure it's the same but,

I watched a film about jim Clark the other night. He said he doesn't think he's a better driver than anyone else, he said concentrates more when he's driving. Every corner, check his steering position, his line, when he touches the loud pedal. In turn, he said it makes him quicker than everyone else.

[Harrympope]

I just talked to a respected "tuner" here in the USA.he told me if you are really averaging 1 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards with a spring gun you are either lying,not counting flyers ,don't shoot many groups or have a youtube channel.

I thought his response was funny.

[bozzer]

Obviously knows what he's talking about.

[BTDT]

I just talked to a respected "tuner" here in the USA.he told me if you are really averaging 1 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards with a spring gun you are either lying,not counting flyers ,don't shoot many groups or have a youtube channel...

Or a former world champion FT shooter using his FT rig?