10m Match Air Rifle Ammunition ?

[Blackrider]

In the Collectables Section as some of you may know, there's a current thread running enquiring as to what is the best pellet to use in a Feinwerkbau 300s air rifle ? (or any other similar air rifle for that matter)
Being as recently a few of us have acquired an F300s, me included, I thought I would post the question on here amongst the experts so to speak as unlike me anyway, you guys are doing this all the time !

Thanks,
John.

[thisisdonald]

I recently acquired a fwb pistol and have been using rws hobby, rws r10 and crosman premier match.
May as well throw the crosmans away - they have mold markings on every single pellet and its nigh on impossible to get tight groups. The hobbies are not bad but unfortunately the r10s, being the most expensive are easily the best. Groupings are half the size of the other two. I also tried geco the other week which were similar to the hobby.

I'll be watching this thread for more suggestions. But for me at the moment, the r10s easily top what I've tried.

[Wadhill1]

I tend to feed my FWB's H&N. works for me.

Charles

[zooma]

I have been shooting with 300S (and 300SU) rifles or running clubs with members using 300S and 300SU rifles since the early 1970's and the pellet of choice at the time ( and still valid now) is the Meisterkugeln 4.50.

This is an ideal pellet/rifle combination that always works well.

[Blackrider]

A note of observation, quite a few of the pellet outlets seem to be sold out of 4.48 and 4.49 diameter match pellets of different types. Is that because that particular size is preferred ?

[learningcurve]

+1 for the RWS Meisterklugen's

[harvey_s]

A test group shot rested is going to reveal very quickly which pellet & head size best suit your gun.
Just try a few different types, after years shooting H&N I recently found my match guns all produce the tightest groups with JSB Schak in 4.50

[zooma]

A note of observation, quite a few of the pellet outlets seem to be sold out of 4.48 and 4.49 diameter match pellets of different types. Is that because that particular size is preferred ?

Most shooters have their own preference regarding size - check out the "in depth" thread on here "4.49 or 4.50" for a very interesting read.

Back in the 70's we did not have to make that choice - everything was 4.50 so life was easy and in those days the only rival pellet to the RWS Meisterkugeln was the H&N (and I used them too) - but the Meisterkugeln seems to be unchanged and works the same as it did then but the H&N pellets are not the same and I understand the lube they use has changed as well.

This change may suite modern and current match rifles better ( for all I know) but for a vintage 300S or 300SU I prefer to stick with the same Meisterkugeln pellet that we all used back then, and if you have the time to do some "in depth" and accurate pellet testing from a clamped rest you will probably find it is still the best combination of barrel and pellet for your 300S.

[RobinC]

The size of the group is more dependant on the quality of the testing, ie, the rig and the tester, than the pellet (within reason and some real rubbish pellets excepted).

Accurate testing is not easy and needs some very sohisticated eqipment to both hold the gun and measure the group to get accurate, consitant and representative results, I've seen testing at Steyr, Walther and MEC, and seen my wifes modern rifle tested at MEC and shoot a perfect 10 shot 4.50mm hole (can't call it a group) .

I was amazed at Steyr to see all diferent match pellets being used for testing with almost identical results, I thought that's good, they are testing to cover all pellets, the real answer why? They said "We just buy what ever the local shop has in stock!"

For classics the meisterklugeln is what it was weened on, no choice on weight or size, but at top world level for modern guns there are only two makes RWS R10's and Qiuang Yuan.

Have Fun and Good shooting.

[Blackrider]

Wonderful stuff so far Guys, many thanks !

[PhatMan]

Blackrider,

It all depends on how well you can shoot and what nature of shooting you do.

Shooting standing, I am not good - enthusiastic, but not good at all - in fact I stink

So any good quality pellet would suit me for 10m standing shooting

However, I spent almost twenty (20) years shooting full-bore benchrest at long range (up to 1000 yards).

For me the below preferences are based on bench shooting my rifles at ranges of 10m to 20 m.

I have found with my 10m springers (Original 66 & 75, Feinwerkbau 300, Walther LG55 & LGV) that the below pellets shoot very consistently well :

RWS R10 Pistol & Rifle, RWS Meisterkugeln Pistol & Rifle, JSB Match 'Green' & 'Orange', Qiang Yuan

The only springers I have that really show a 'preference' (perceptibly better consistency and smaller group-size) are my HW99S & HW95 Super Match - for these the RWS R10 Pistol & RWS Meisterkugeln Pistol are the clear winners.

So if you are like me at standing shooting, the RWS Meisterkugeln will deliver all you need, and at a good price.

If you are spiffingly good at standing shooting (> ca. 580 on a 60 shot ISSF 10m), then the R10s & Qiang Yuan would be worth a go - but as ever, competent & good testing is needed to get to a valid conclusion for what is best for you and your rifle.

Have fun & a good weekend

Best regards

Russ

[TonyL]

As a recent buyer of a 300S, this is very interesting.

When I first bought it, just over two weeks ago, I ran some Hobbies through it and they were most impressive.

Got some R10 (Rifle ones) and tried to perform a test yesterday. But it was flawed as my eyes were playing up after a hospital visit and eye drops and the diopters were really screwing with my eyes.

Maybe, just MAYBE, the R10s just shaded the Hobbies but, as mentioned up above, a more meaningful and scientific test will be required.

[PhatMan]

Hello to All,

Measurements on complex systems are often quite difficult.

The variables we wish to test, are often mixed up with other variables we cannot eliminate, and cloud the results to a greater or lesser extent

So we wish to check group size of a range of pellets in our rifle, to see which is 'best'

Simplifying greatly what we have would be similar to the below :

ErrorSystem = ErrorPerson + ErrorAiming + ErrorRifle + ErrorOther + ErrorPellet

Quite a lot of Errors other than the one we want to see contribute to the overall Error

In these circumstances, we try and get to a means of testing that will minimize and/or keep constant the Errors we don't want or can't get rid off, to simplify the 'equation' to :

ErrorSystem = Constant + ErrorPellet

As RobinC has said, the tests of his wife's rifle at MEC were done by means of a 'vice test' - the ErrorPerson + ErrorAiming will have been greatly reduced, possibly even made to be = 0.

That is the reason why I test from 'benchrest' : to minimize some of the un-avoidable errors, which is why when I can, I always use a high magnification, stopped down scope to so the aiming.

With aperture sights, the best I have been able to do for me in aiming (tested via a laser pointer) is an aiming error of ca. 0.5 to 1mm at 10m - that is the best I can do with my eyes - in the series of measurements, some of the aperture aiming errors were 1 to 3 mm when I was feeling tired - quite an error.

As measurements of complex systems are challenging, that is why they are generally defined by a standardised test procedure - that is why ISO, BS, IP, ASTM etc. test methods exist.

They do not necessarily give the 'right' answer, but if everybody uses the same procedure/protocols, then they would be singing from the same hymn sheet

As an aside, you have to shoot enough shots & groups to reduce the error in your estimation of the mean sizes of the groups - I conventionally do 10 x 10 shot groups as a minimum.

It is quite a lot of work this testing , and I was seriously gutted recently when I lost the vast majority of my data due to a disk failure - what a wanker I am for not having backed it up !!

Do vice & bench methods give the same results as 'shoulder testing' - with springers probably not, but being as I am shite at standing shooting, the bench results will act as a guide (and nothing else - they are not definitive proof ) to which pellet shoots 'best'.

At the end of the day, I shoot because I enjoy it, so I don't get hung up too much on the above I do the measurements because I find them interesting, not because they are definitive or absolute.

Have fun & a good Sunday

Best regards

Russ

[RobinC]

Nice post from Russ and puts it nicely in perspective.

What do you want out of it? As a target shooter I'm interested in two aspects, the combined accuracy of the gun and ammunition, and the feel and confidence to the shooter. With an air rifle the second does not come into as there is no recoil its purely the end result, and I'm sure you will have gathered from me, and from Russ's post achieving the result is not as simple as you may think.

The test done on my wife's rifle at MEC was not actually done from a clamped vice, they do do that, but also do from a, like a very upmarket bench rest set up, the reasoning is that even a magnetically damped Walther LG400 does have a smigeon of recoil, that system allows it to happen. The aiming issue for each shot is the biggest error in bench testing, and also in actual shooting, generally comes from shooter ability but also the problem of an imprinted image. The steadier the aim the more the shooter will stare at the sight picture and that image will imprint in seconds, then you are not looking at the sight picture but instead the image of it imprinted on your eye. Its not such a problem standing, although it still happens, as the discipline is for a more "assertive shot" but in prone it is a real problem (especially us of advancing years!).

You've heard coaches say the shot should be taken within 5 -8 seconds of the steadying of the aim, its my mantra, take it or reject or avert the eye. If you have a rifle on rest, stare through your sights for ten seconds, then avert the eye and look at a light background. you will still see the sight picture, and it will take over ten seconds to disappear. In prone our technique is constantly averting the eye, both to check the natural zero, and to avoid imprinted image, and if you like me have floaters, a side ways avert temporarily clears those as well.

The MEC test the rifle was aimed with a Scatt attachéd (for those not aware look on the Scatt website to see what it is), and the screen was on full zoom, and the aim was adjusted with moving the rifle for each shot until the trace was on the dead middle.

Then of course there is the barrel cleanliness, what rubbish has been shot through it before? To me its another (and important) reason to use top quality pellets, I'm not into the need to clean air rifle barrels other than the occasional felt blown through every tin full (only if I think it, so often not!), but I have seen some barrels that needed serious cleaning purely from using cheap pellets.

The test referred here was done during a break in coaching, when the question was asked "when did you last clean your barrel", come on be serious, its a woman's rifle, cleaned? ever?

Amid much jocularity the test was intended to show how much better it would shoot after it was cleaned, the test was the "before". The result sort of deflated the intention to clean the barrel, the reply was "Hell, this thing shoots, do you want to sell it! And, don't clean it!" That is the only time that rifle has ever been tested and it has never had any thing through it other than R10 and Quiang Yuan before and since (and its still not been cleaned!) and it still shoots possibles.

The accuracy of the top match air rifles has not changed for 50 years, I still have our original Walther LGV Spezial, complete with its test target and the test group, one hole, no different to our most recent Walther LG400, the advances are in balance, ergonomics and triggers, and recoil damping, a FWB 300s in good condition with a clean barrel I have no doubt would shoot a one hole non group, and with the low cost of pellets I'd use only the best.

Just to put it into perspective, 500 air gun Quang Yuan, £8, five hundred .22rf RWS R50 £87.50, and five hundred 6mmBR Norma £900! Our hand loaded 6mmBR £300!

I think you will all have hours of fun testing, but I'll bet that the best in the 300S will be the R10's or Quiang Yuan, just as they are in the modern rifles. But then perhaps the fun is in the journey not the arrival!

Have Fun and Good Shooting
Robin

[PhatMan]

Robin,

Many thanks for your excellent post

Have fun

Best regards

Russ