How tight? - Spring Guide & Top Hat

[rabbitslayer]

Well I got my HW95 back together and its better than it was but there's still a bit of twang. Not impressed at all, wish I had paid another £20 and got a Vmach kit now but these are given glowing reviews all over the various airgun forums so thought they were worth a try.

Could it just be that it needs a few shots through it all to bed in or if its twanging straight after fitting it wont get any better? I suspect its due to the loose fitting guide, although there might be room to fit a ptfe piston liner inside the steel liner which could help.

Which kit did you fit, I mean who supplied / made the kit?

[Mark A]

I am reluctant to say at this stage as I am sure if it is the guide at fault they will sort me a tighter fitting one out. Just a bit disappointed as I spent all day carefully disassembling, degreasing, polishing and burnishing and then after all that work its still twanging. The old spring guide is a better fit in the new titan spring, I could have just bought a spring and used the old guide and saved myself a bundle of cash .

I have a feeling that the end of the spring being so rough made it seem like it was a tighter fit. I polished out the grinding marks and took off the sharp edges and that was when it became apparent it was a loose fit.

The only other thing I can think of is that the Venom/Vmach kits had a thick white grease on the spring, which i am guessing is similar to the Maccari tars? Maybe that helps further dampen any twang.

[POK!]

I can send you a slug of tar if you like, stuff kills twang like you wouldn't believe.

[bucketboy]

I read lot about polishing the end of the spring, do any of you guy also fit ptfe slip rings to aid spring rotation?

[PCPShooter]

Suppliers Manufacturers change springs, run out and substitute etc they do .

Unless buying a complete kit always a 'risk' -

For an hw80 notorious tricly to keep legal probably v mach offer the best quality solution. As you'd expect the priciest.

You pay your money and take your choice. I have found V Mach Welsh Willy and Tinbum all helpful, and non of them get it right every time and nor can they with the variables of air rifle manufacture.

My 'best rifles' are v mach'd, Tinbum used my 900x as a guide test, Will made up a kit for my Cometa not yet fitted.
If everything 'lines up' as ideal tinbums guides work well, however not the same as a complete drop in kit with V Machs being the most design refined / best material, at a price, and Wills Titan based kits working well in many rifles too.

I prefer / find different kits work in particular models of rifles better / best ....

[PCPShooter]

I am reluctant to say at this stage as I am sure if it is the guide at fault they will sort me a tighter fitting one out. Just a bit disappointed as I spent all day carefully disassembling, degreasing, polishing and burnishing and then after all that work its still twanging. The old spring guide is a better fit in the new titan spring, I could have just bought a spring and used the old guide and saved myself a bundle of cash .

I have a feeling that the end of the spring being so rough made it seem like it was a tighter fit. I polished out the grinding marks and took off the sharp edges and that was when it became apparent it was a loose fit.

The only other thing I can think of is that the Venom/Vmach kits had a thick white grease on the spring, which i am guessing is similar to the Maccari tars? Maybe that helps further dampen any twang.

The v mach kits are hand finished and matched pieces, using top notch workshop gear, thats why they don't twang the 'white grease' wont change fit n finish -

[TORNADOS7]

I am reluctant to say at this stage as I am sure if it is the guide at fault they will sort me a tighter fitting one out. Just a bit disappointed as I spent all day carefully disassembling, degreasing, polishing and burnishing and then after all that work its still twanging. The old spring guide is a better fit in the new titan spring, I could have just bought a spring and used the old guide and saved myself a bundle of cash .

I have a feeling that the end of the spring being so rough made it seem like it was a tighter fit. I polished out the grinding marks and took off the sharp edges and that was when it became apparent it was a loose fit.

The only other thing I can think of is that the Venom/Vmach kits had a thick white grease on the spring, which i am guessing is similar to the Maccari tars? Maybe that helps further dampen any twang.

Hmmm, something you said has just jumped out at me, if it's the kit I think it is then bare in mind it'll be made to use with the OEM spring, just a thought !...

[Mark A]

Hmmm, something you said has just jumped out at me, if it's the kit I think it is then bare in mind it'll be made to use with the OEM spring, just a thought !...

It came with a cut to length Titan spring. I specifically went for that kit as it already had a cut spring included so I wouldn't have to mess about cutting coils off.

The v mach kits are hand finished and matched pieces, using top notch workshop gear, thats why they don't twang the 'white grease' wont change fit n finish -

I paid £60 for the kit I went for, so only £20 less than the Vmach kit, but it didnt include a piston seal, so probably not that far off being the same price. I went for it as when I googled every comment on forums (inc here) and youtube etc said they were great kits and are just as good as Vmach if not better. I expected it to work just as well as the Vmach kit going by all the glowing reviews. For £60 I expected it to get rid of the twang to be honest.

The white grease they add must do something though or else they wouldn't add it. Its very thick and sticky, so I am assuming its some sort of tar product like the ones Maccari sells, which are designed to kill twang. I agree though that the fit will be the main factor.

[TORNADOS7]

It came with a cut to length Titan spring. I specifically went for that kit as it already had a cut spring included so I wouldn't have to mess about cutting coils off.




I paid £60 for the kit I went for, so only £20 less than the Vmach kit, but it didnt include a piston seal, so probably not that far off being the same price. I went for it as when I googled every comment on forums (inc here) and youtube etc said they were great kits and are just as good as Vmach if not better. I expected it to work just as well as the Vmach kit going by all the glowing reviews. For £60 I expected it to get rid of the twang to be honest.

The white grease they add must do something though or else they wouldn't add it. Its very thick and sticky, so I am assuming its some sort of tar product like the ones Maccari sells, which are designed to kill twang. I agree though that the fit will be the main factor.

Rite, fair enough matey, not the kit I was thinking of then !...

[phil384]

Call me old fashioned but why do people have to spend money making rifles smoother to fire?

Why aren't the manufacturers making better fitting top hats, spring guides, better finished springs etc etc?

It's not like AA or HW are budget air rifles!

[Bulsaye]

Afternoon everyone,

I'm planning on smartening up the internals of a brand new HW80. I've got replacement delrin spring guide and top hat but, when fitted into the spring they are absolutely rock solid. No movement at all and impossible to remove without inserting a rod into the spring and tapping them out.

Is this right? I know it's preferable to have a 'snug' fit between these and the spring but I thought the spring should be free enough to rotate when being cocked / released (fired) or is this what the 'slip washers' are for?

Advice please...

Basically I make my guides to be a light to moderate "screw in/screw out" fitting in a set spring. As the spring is compressed, even just when the endplug is installed, the ID of the spring tends to increase a little and loosens up on the guide; producing a near perfect fit.

[Rickenbacker]

Call me old fashioned but why do people have to spend money making rifles smoother to fire?

Why aren't the manufacturers making better fitting top hats, spring guides, better finished springs etc etc?

It's not like AA or HW are budget air rifles!

I must be fair, I bought a brand new '97K the other week - and it had a proper finished spring, no swarf inside, not much of a twang either...

It also had no steel piston sleeve (the old ones did), a bit of scuffing on the cylinder, a sloppy guide, a creepy trigger, and that horrible yellow waxy HW grease that makes the whole thing feel harsh, and as dry as an Arab's dap...

I mean, I do agree with you, you shouldn't need to finesse a new gun... but it helps...

[thisisdonald]

OK, I understand what you're saying but isn't the point of 'tuning' a rifle, to get it to shoot as smoothly, consistently and as accurately as possible in the first place?

The tuning threads and guides I've read (and Iv'e read a few), all explain in detail the importance of burnishing, lubricating and polishing in order to allow all internal contact surfaces to work as freely and 'SMOOTHLY' as possible together which is key to getting the best out of the rifle. So... after doing all that why then go and fit something that's so tight and grabby, that it needs wearing in and takes away consistency and accuracy until it's worn sufficiently enough to fit properly?

If the guide had to wear itself down before the rifle improved it was obviously too tight a fit to start with, surely?

All of the bits you are advised to polish move within the constraints of their design. A spribg has a bit of an unknown quantity. Its potential energy needs to be tamed as it is released. It wont release it energy in exactly the same way each time the gun is fired. By using a tight guide you are essentially fixing the spring to the guide at the rear of the gun. It will rotate with the guide and as such you tame one end. At the other end you have a different scenario - the spring is tamed inside the piston ( unless you are using a skirtless piston!) and because the piston doesnt (or maybe it does!) rotate, you want a looser fitting tophat which may or may not stay fixed with the piston, allowing the spring to rotate, or it may rotate with the spring.
My point being, we tune what we can within the limits of the design and we try to tame whats left.
A good tune is like a balancing act.
Nobidy likes to hear twang, but im sure that there are twangy guns out there that shoot great.. personally i cant live with it. My most recent brush with twang was a bsa lightning.. king if the stubborn twangers!!!! I tried everything. In the end it turned out to be the amount of torque on the stock screws which dictated whether the gun made a loud horrible twang or a lovely soft thud.
My advise is tldont put all your eggs in one basket. If this is your first attempt at a home tune or using a drop in kit, you need to lower your expectations. Its not a simple thing to tune a gun to perfection. If you want your gun tuned to perfection, you either gain the experience through trial and error or pay someone to do it for you.

[rabbitslayer]

If you want your gun tuned to perfection, you either gain the experience through trial and error or pay someone to do it for you.

I wasn't expecting perfection... I was expecting to be able to remove the guide and top hat from the spring without getting a hernia

[rabbitslayer]

Call me old fashioned but why do people have to spend money making rifles smoother to fire?

Why aren't the manufacturers making better fitting top hats, spring guides, better finished springs etc etc?

It's not like AA or HW are budget air rifles!

I don't disagree with you but then again, I guess no matter how good a mass produced gun is there will always be room for improvement. I'm only going down this route because the HW80 isn't the best at non FAC levels. So why buy the 80?... because I had one years ago and I wanted one again, only now it's much easier to make them shoot better.