Fraudster ruin our chosen pastime

[GSMN1]

The world of air rifle collecting is fraught with danger. This forum, it's structure and its policing are very good; and keep it a safe place to read, comment and trade. Now, I think most of us like to trade and everyone likes a good deal.

However, I had a recent experience which re-established my cynicism in trading and recalibrated the controls i need to use to ensure my interests are protected.

It all started when I bought a scope from another internet based sales site - F*** **s. I should point out that this is where I met the "seller". I bought an Optima Moonlighter from him advertised on the site. During our telephone conversations it transpired he also had a Venom Hw77 Mk2 0.177 full lazaglide in a venom Tyrolean stock and was looking to sell. Was I interested? To cut a long story short he turned up at my place with this gun. We had agreed on a swap and cash. In addition to the cash I let my Don Blocksidge fully engraved Hw35 0.177 in an Hw50 Tyrolean stock go!

This guy - the seller - had all the chat. The gun had been bought from a reputable and known guy. It was then fully verified by someone trading under a pseudonym - let's call him "The Airgun Specialist". The seller runs a league has a website. I had no reason to doubt!

On shooting, the gun felt a bit harsh. So I sent pics of the gun and then the action over to the only man I know who can guarantee me a clean and straight answer on venom guns.

His report was clear right enough. Standard internals. Hand made top hat. 100% not lazaglide. And not a venom stock either. An early CS Tyrolean. The brass guard was a cheap foreign mould. The action was worn and bluing faded. Horror story. I had been royally fleeced.

So here we have a web of deceit. If the seller is innocent then The Airgun specialist is either incompetent, lying or in Cahoots with the original source. If the seller is lying then he runs the risk of some serious flack and he's implicated a known entity.

To his credit the seller did offer me the chance to return the gun. But by the time he'd replied etc, I'd made a decision to treat it as an expensive life lesson. Rather than sit and cry in my soup, I asked Steve Pope to do a number on her. I won't go intimate details, but when it's finished I will share the pics. My decision to go down this path was almost wholly driven by the psychology of it all. There was no way I could pick up the rifle and think crazy thoughts of revenge every time I put it to shoulder. So now - when she's done - I hope I will smile and think of how those guys- whoever was responsible for this scam - were probably picked on in the playground and that's their way of feeling like a big and clever men. I've got a nice gun. They will always be cheap.

Thankfully I'm not cash strapped. I can shrug it off. Even though it was sore and I lost a good gun. But imagine if it had been an old bloke parting with a chunk of pension. Or an 18 year old lad buying his first gun.

Shame on anyone trying to pull a fast one. Thankfully the vast majority of people I've met and dealt with have been real gentlemen.

What's the answer? Name and shame? Don't buy or trade outside of BBS? Set up a trader star rating like good deals on here?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Hsing-ee]

Couldn't you see/feel that it was not a Venom? The quality of the blueing, the grade of walnut, the ultra-smooth and light cocking (or lack of it)? The seller/swapper did let you inspect it before you did the deal, didn't he? I would have thought that just looking at it would have given the game away.

I have heard of people being sold a 'Venom Lazaglide' on this BBS and have found that it is just a standard action packed with grease... Sometimes people confuse the Venom kits with an actual Venom tune..

Unless you are shown the original paperwork from Venom or Bowkett or whoever, the only way to know is to strip the rifle and have someone who knows look at the bits. Secondhand rifles are a bit of a lucky-packet, the internals can be anything from standard to beautifully set up, dry or slathered in grease, with good springs or broken, OX etc.... A Mk 2 HW77 is not to be sniffed at and neither is a CS stock. Its a shame about the 35 but you have a better rifle now from a functional point of view, even without the Popework. The seller does owe you though.

[RayinNZ]

Buy the gun not the story!
You had a chance to handle the rifle before buying, were offered a chance to return the rifle.
So what are you moaning about, your lack of knowledge?

[GSMN1]

Buy the gun not the story!
You had a chance to handle the rifle before buying, were offered a chance to return the rifle.
So what are you moaning about, your lack of knowledge?

Yes there's a lack of knowledge. The gun cocked very smoothly. My point is simply that I am amazed at the levels some people will stoop too, to sell a gun. I'm highlighting that sometimes you can't take anyone's 'word". Perhaps I'm too old fashioned. But for one minute, imagine my seller was telling the truth. A branded and well known gunsmith told him it was legit! A professional conning a punter! What then?

It will come back to me with a vented shroud, glided, silky smooth and black as ink. I'm ok with things. I just think there are a lot of prats out there, and I feel I should underline the syndrome and remind buyers to be ultra careful. End of.

[Garvin]

I have to applaud your philosophical attitude - you win some and lose some in this game and crying when you lose is a mistake. But this experience does reinforce the truth that you should never take anything at face value and expect to see supporting evidence to back up what someone is telling you. If the seller said he would take the gun back, it's hardly a scam.

[GSMN1]

I agree. And that's an important point. But it therefore stands that if the seller is innocent then this Airgun specialist should hang up his spanners. In our increasingly litigious society I think it's unjust that we can't just name and shame. Anyone agree or disagree?

[piggy589]

You've done the right thing in taking a pragmatic approach,just get the gun sorted and buyer beware next time.

About ten years ago a Venom80 at £250 appeared in the Loot,got to be worth a look I thought.

A drive to Colwyn Bay to meet a guy who looked for all the world like Quinten Tarrentino's little brother.

He popped his car boot to reveal a Weihrauch in a beautifully figured walnut thumbhole stock,complete with an expensive scope.

However on cocking the gun I realised this gun was anything but a venom conversion and actually a mess internally.

"£200 any good to you?",the seller paused for a moment and then agreed to sell.

The scope was scrap,the reticle being torn,the gun contained a square section spring that had been cut at one end with an angle grinder and left unfinished.

A phone call to that man in Stourbridge put me in possession of a maglide kit complete with a replacement mainspring,everthing pre-lubed,Steve even took my piston as an exchange unit.

When reassembled the gun was once again a sweet shooter,by no means an unmarked beauty, but I was more than happy with the end result.

[GSMN1]

The world of air rifle collecting is fraught with danger. This forum, it's structure and its policing are very good; and keep it a safe place to read, comment and trade. Now, I think most of us like to trade and everyone likes a good deal.

However, I had a recent experience which re-established my cynicism in trading and recalibrated the controls i need to use to ensure my interests are protected.

It all started when I bought a scope from another internet based sales site - F*** **s. I should point out that this is where I met the "seller". I bought an Optima Moonlighter from him advertised on the site. During our telephone conversations it transpired he also had a Venom Hw77 Mk2 0.177 full lazaglide in a venom Tyrolean stock and was looking to sell. Was I interested? To cut a long story short he turned up at my place with this gun. We had agreed on a swap and cash. In addition to the cash I let my Don Blocksidge fully engraved Hw35 0.177 in an Hw50 Tyrolean stock go!

This guy - the seller - had all the chat. The gun had been bought from a reputable and known guy. It was then fully verified by someone trading under a pseudonym - let's call him "The Airgun Specialist". The seller runs a league has a website. I had no reason to doubt!

On shooting, the gun felt a bit harsh. So I sent pics of the gun and then the action over to the only man I know who can guarantee me a clean and straight answer on venom guns.

His report was clear right enough. Standard internals. Hand made top hat. 100% not lazaglide. And not a venom stock either. An early CS Tyrolean. The brass guard was a cheap foreign mould. The action was worn and bluing faded. Horror story. I had been royally fleeced.

So here we have a web of deceit. If the seller is innocent then The Airgun specialist is either incompetent, lying or in Cahoots with the original source. If the seller is lying then he runs the risk of some serious flack and he's implicated a known entity.

To his credit the seller did offer me the chance to return the gun. But by the time he'd replied etc, I'd made a decision to treat it as an expensive life lesson. Rather than sit and cry in my soup, I asked Steve Pope to do a number on her. I won't go intimate details, but when it's finished I will share the pics. My decision to go down this path was almost wholly driven by the psychology of it all. There was no way I could pick up the rifle and think crazy thoughts of revenge every time I put it to shoulder. So now - when she's done - I hope I will smile and think of how those guys- whoever was responsible for this scam - were probably picked on in the playground and that's their way of feeling like a big and clever men. I've got a nice gun. They will always be cheap.

Thankfully I'm not cash strapped. I can shrug it off. Even though it was sore and I lost a good gun. But imagine if it had been an old bloke parting with a chunk of pension. Or an 18 year old lad buying his first gun.

Shame on anyone trying to pull a fast one. Thankfully the vast majority of people I've met and dealt with have been real gentlemen.

What's the answer? Name and shame? Don't buy or trade outside of BBS? Set up a trader star rating like good deals on here?

Any thoughts appreciated.

heres the rifle in question - as I bought it. I added the Weaver.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/...psq0hsosey.png

[Hsing-ee]

heres the rifle in question - as I bought it. I added the Weaver.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/...psq0hsosey.png

Stock, blueing, trigger, trigger-guard all not up to Venom standard. As the seller said he would do a swap back I can't see the issue. Probable that he thought it was a Venom too, and the self-proclaimed 'expert' was just that, a 'self-proclaimed' expert who doesn't know his onions. Thing is, if someone said here's a Venom for swapsies and they gave me that to have a look at I would have said 'no thanks mate', Venom or no Venom heritage. I would go for the evidence in front of me every time. Even Venom could have its off days...

[gingernut]

Funny you should say that.
I have an old Venom 35 .177 from the elderly original owner who said he had commissioned the work on it from Venom.

He was very proud of it.
It has brass plaques with Venom and his initials on it.
He had won many a Competition with it.
Period scope.
I do not doubt he was telling the truth.

It shot like cr*p.

So I gave it to my tuner who made it nice.
He said if that's Venom internals it must have been the work experience boy.

[Hsing-ee]

Funny you should say that.
I have an old Venom 35 .177 from the elderly original owner who said he had commissioned the work on it from Venom.

He was very proud of it.
It has brass plaques with Venom and his initials on it.
He had won many a Competition with it.
Period scope.
I do not doubt he was telling the truth.

It shot like cr*p.

So I gave it to my tuner who made it nice.
He said if that's Venom internals it must have been the work experience boy.

The very early Venoms were reputedly heavily sprung and rather 'Soviet' in their performance-enhancing modifications... there was a learning curve about what worked and what didn't. While I am sure the work that today's V-Mach does is superb, I think that by reading the posts by T20, edbear2, Jon Budd et al one can work out an optimum tune for your particular rifle or pistol without spending more than fifty or a hundred pounds. If you start with a TX200 or HW99S it could be even less than that ...

[Muskett]

Thanks for sharing your story with this gun. I think we have all bought a gun which wasn't quite the real deal.
Its funny some people think I know something about Venoms! What I always say is every one should be taken on its own merit and that taken with a pinch of salt. In 30 years of Venom production there have been so many different variations. In the early days they tried and experimented a lot. All sorts of work was done, and some periods the work got a little more standardised!! But only for a while until they did some improvements!!
Add that to enthusiasts always tinkering with their kit, swopping and changing bits, then its not surprising that there is a right hodge podge out there.

I own one Venom, but could never prove it. Its high quality and firing cycle ensures it can't be anything else "probably".

It is annoying when a premium is paid for a gun, and soon after its shown that something is not quite right. The gun trade has always been cut throat and for all the charm just business. On par with second hand car dealing. Know your onions and you might not get burnt as often, can still happen.
What is really annoying is if you are honest you won't pass on that pup to another. I've taken a good few hits because I'm honest. Sharp Inovas I'm a succour for getting poor ones; never again to the point I wont have one.

Lastly, with few examples of what you want coming onto the market then sometimes the only way is to be quick. Its a risk and you won't win every time. All part of the fun of collecting... not. Learn something new on every transaction. Eventually, you will have the collection that you love... well most of it.

[gingernut]

[QUOTE=Hsing-ee;6996286]The very early Venoms were reputedly heavily sprung and rather 'Soviet' in their performance-enhancing modifications... there was a learning curve about what worked and what didn't.

Yes my tuning mate said that as well!

I knew the owner was straight as they come and he wouldn't take much for it either.

So I have had two real Venoms out of six.

[Rickenbacker]

Any thoughts appreciated.

Ironic thread!

I'm a total idiot. Yet even I thought it was a Venom stock.

[RustyBuzz]

The point I'm trying to make, with regard to collecting these 80's custom jobs is that it's all about the woodwork.

The actions you can get tuned, reblued, engraved or whatever - but the stocks are unique.

If you could find someone, good enough to make one, how much would it cost? Best part of £1k would be my guess using French walnut.

I think that you have a very nice Venom 77 there. I love the red recoil pad. Minimal work on the action would put it back to original condition - it does not need to be a laser glide to be brilliant.

Enjoy.