Fraudster ruin our chosen pastime

[GSMN1]

The world of air rifle collecting is fraught with danger. This forum, it's structure and its policing are very good; and keep it a safe place to read, comment and trade. Now, I think most of us like to trade and everyone likes a good deal.

However, I had a recent experience which re-established my cynicism in trading and recalibrated the controls i need to use to ensure my interests are protected.

It all started when I bought a scope from another internet based sales site - F*** **s. I should point out that this is where I met the "seller". I bought an Optima Moonlighter from him advertised on the site. During our telephone conversations it transpired he also had a Venom Hw77 Mk2 0.177 full lazaglide in a venom Tyrolean stock and was looking to sell. Was I interested? To cut a long story short he turned up at my place with this gun. We had agreed on a swap and cash. In addition to the cash I let my Don Blocksidge fully engraved Hw35 0.177 in an Hw50 Tyrolean stock go!

This guy - the seller - had all the chat. The gun had been bought from a reputable and known guy. It was then fully verified by someone trading under a pseudonym - let's call him "The Airgun Specialist". The seller runs a league has a website. I had no reason to doubt!

On shooting, the gun felt a bit harsh. So I sent pics of the gun and then the action over to the only man I know who can guarantee me a clean and straight answer on venom guns.

His report was clear right enough. Standard internals. Hand made top hat. 100% not lazaglide. And not a venom stock either. An early CS Tyrolean. The brass guard was a cheap foreign mould. The action was worn and bluing faded. Horror story. I had been royally fleeced.

So here we have a web of deceit. If the seller is innocent then The Airgun specialist is either incompetent, lying or in Cahoots with the original source. If the seller is lying then he runs the risk of some serious flack and he's implicated a known entity.

To his credit the seller did offer me the chance to return the gun. But by the time he'd replied etc, I'd made a decision to treat it as an expensive life lesson. Rather than sit and cry in my soup, I asked Steve Pope to do a number on her. I won't go intimate details, but when it's finished I will share the pics. My decision to go down this path was almost wholly driven by the psychology of it all. There was no way I could pick up the rifle and think crazy thoughts of revenge every time I put it to shoulder. So now - when she's done - I hope I will smile and think of how those guys- whoever was responsible for this scam - were probably picked on in the playground and that's their way of feeling like a big and clever men. I've got a nice gun. They will always be cheap.

Thankfully I'm not cash strapped. I can shrug it off. Even though it was sore and I lost a good gun. But imagine if it had been an old bloke parting with a chunk of pension. Or an 18 year old lad buying his first gun.

Shame on anyone trying to pull a fast one. Thankfully the vast majority of people I've met and dealt with have been real gentlemen.

What's the answer? Name and shame? Don't buy or trade outside of BBS? Set up a trader star rating like good deals on here?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Hsing-ee]

Couldn't you see/feel that it was not a Venom? The quality of the blueing, the grade of walnut, the ultra-smooth and light cocking (or lack of it)? The seller/swapper did let you inspect it before you did the deal, didn't he? I would have thought that just looking at it would have given the game away.

I have heard of people being sold a 'Venom Lazaglide' on this BBS and have found that it is just a standard action packed with grease... Sometimes people confuse the Venom kits with an actual Venom tune..

Unless you are shown the original paperwork from Venom or Bowkett or whoever, the only way to know is to strip the rifle and have someone who knows look at the bits. Secondhand rifles are a bit of a lucky-packet, the internals can be anything from standard to beautifully set up, dry or slathered in grease, with good springs or broken, OX etc.... A Mk 2 HW77 is not to be sniffed at and neither is a CS stock. Its a shame about the 35 but you have a better rifle now from a functional point of view, even without the Popework. The seller does owe you though.

[RayinNZ]

Buy the gun not the story!
You had a chance to handle the rifle before buying, were offered a chance to return the rifle.
So what are you moaning about, your lack of knowledge?

[GSMN1]

Buy the gun not the story!
You had a chance to handle the rifle before buying, were offered a chance to return the rifle.
So what are you moaning about, your lack of knowledge?

Yes there's a lack of knowledge. The gun cocked very smoothly. My point is simply that I am amazed at the levels some people will stoop too, to sell a gun. I'm highlighting that sometimes you can't take anyone's 'word". Perhaps I'm too old fashioned. But for one minute, imagine my seller was telling the truth. A branded and well known gunsmith told him it was legit! A professional conning a punter! What then?

It will come back to me with a vented shroud, glided, silky smooth and black as ink. I'm ok with things. I just think there are a lot of prats out there, and I feel I should underline the syndrome and remind buyers to be ultra careful. End of.

[Garvin]

I have to applaud your philosophical attitude - you win some and lose some in this game and crying when you lose is a mistake. But this experience does reinforce the truth that you should never take anything at face value and expect to see supporting evidence to back up what someone is telling you. If the seller said he would take the gun back, it's hardly a scam.

[piggy589]

You've done the right thing in taking a pragmatic approach,just get the gun sorted and buyer beware next time.

About ten years ago a Venom80 at £250 appeared in the Loot,got to be worth a look I thought.

A drive to Colwyn Bay to meet a guy who looked for all the world like Quinten Tarrentino's little brother.

He popped his car boot to reveal a Weihrauch in a beautifully figured walnut thumbhole stock,complete with an expensive scope.

However on cocking the gun I realised this gun was anything but a venom conversion and actually a mess internally.

"£200 any good to you?",the seller paused for a moment and then agreed to sell.

The scope was scrap,the reticle being torn,the gun contained a square section spring that had been cut at one end with an angle grinder and left unfinished.

A phone call to that man in Stourbridge put me in possession of a maglide kit complete with a replacement mainspring,everthing pre-lubed,Steve even took my piston as an exchange unit.

When reassembled the gun was once again a sweet shooter,by no means an unmarked beauty, but I was more than happy with the end result.

[GSMN1]

I agree. And that's an important point. But it therefore stands that if the seller is innocent then this Airgun specialist should hang up his spanners. In our increasingly litigious society I think it's unjust that we can't just name and shame. Anyone agree or disagree?

[gingernut]

I have owned 6 Venoms over the years..
Only one of them was genuine.
I have never paid Venom money and never would without paperwork.

So my advice is treat them all as fakes and offer accordingly.
Often you do get a better gun even though it not quite what it's made out to be.

[GSMN1]

Wise words.

[RobinC]

Very sad for you, and a hard learnt lesson, the Uk is the home of the self taught and instant expert, and they are common on the internet, not so much fraudsters as people who are not as knowledgable as they think they are, and profess to be, and maybe even believe it themselves, and some commercial dealers fall into this category as well.

People who have spent a liftime in the trade, and have been factory trained, or a lifetime in the sport, and really do know what they are talking about are very rare today, but the enthusiast who has followed and researched on the internet, and even genuinly but misguidedly believes they know as much, are very much more common.

Its a sad fact of the modern environment that real experts are a rare breed, and even sadder that we should have to take the guidance and opinion of all other than the very well known and respected ones with a pinch of salt.

[gingernut]

There is a lot of that about Robin but let's remember that it's often the self taught chap in a shed who invents the clever stuff.

[Hsing-ee]

On the other hand, is the result of a Venom or V-Mach tune really THAT much better than stripping, deburring, polishing and slipping in a tinbum guide kit in it? I have a friend who spent £90,000 on an Aston Martin DB9, for sure it has 600bhp and a magical aura about it, but to be perfectly honest I prefer my s/h Honda Civic and saving the £88,500. They both do the same thing in the end...

[GSMN1]

On the other hand, is the result of a Venom or V-Mach tune really THAT much better than stripping, deburring, polishing and slipping in a tinbum guide kit in it? I have a friend who spent £90,000 on an Aston Martin DB9, for sure it has 600bhp and a magical aura about it, but to be perfectly honest I prefer my s/h Honda Civic and saving the £88,500. They both do the same thing in the end...

Yes but... If you thought you were buying a DB9. And your local garage had validated it as such. And you had paid Aston Db9 money. Then turned up to the Aston garage to be told. Sorry mate. "It's a Honda Civic" you'd be pretty miffed with the local garage. Hehe. Love a crazy metaphor.

I thought the comment about the diminishing community of experts was a good one. Where can you go to trusted experts. They are thin in the ground and if professional they have a living to make, Andrew if amateur they usually have a life. Id like a BBS directory of willing experts. Or is that idea simply this forum?

[GSMN1]

The world of air rifle collecting is fraught with danger. This forum, it's structure and its policing are very good; and keep it a safe place to read, comment and trade. Now, I think most of us like to trade and everyone likes a good deal.

However, I had a recent experience which re-established my cynicism in trading and recalibrated the controls i need to use to ensure my interests are protected.

It all started when I bought a scope from another internet based sales site - F*** **s. I should point out that this is where I met the "seller". I bought an Optima Moonlighter from him advertised on the site. During our telephone conversations it transpired he also had a Venom Hw77 Mk2 0.177 full lazaglide in a venom Tyrolean stock and was looking to sell. Was I interested? To cut a long story short he turned up at my place with this gun. We had agreed on a swap and cash. In addition to the cash I let my Don Blocksidge fully engraved Hw35 0.177 in an Hw50 Tyrolean stock go!

This guy - the seller - had all the chat. The gun had been bought from a reputable and known guy. It was then fully verified by someone trading under a pseudonym - let's call him "The Airgun Specialist". The seller runs a league has a website. I had no reason to doubt!

On shooting, the gun felt a bit harsh. So I sent pics of the gun and then the action over to the only man I know who can guarantee me a clean and straight answer on venom guns.

His report was clear right enough. Standard internals. Hand made top hat. 100% not lazaglide. And not a venom stock either. An early CS Tyrolean. The brass guard was a cheap foreign mould. The action was worn and bluing faded. Horror story. I had been royally fleeced.

So here we have a web of deceit. If the seller is innocent then The Airgun specialist is either incompetent, lying or in Cahoots with the original source. If the seller is lying then he runs the risk of some serious flack and he's implicated a known entity.

To his credit the seller did offer me the chance to return the gun. But by the time he'd replied etc, I'd made a decision to treat it as an expensive life lesson. Rather than sit and cry in my soup, I asked Steve Pope to do a number on her. I won't go intimate details, but when it's finished I will share the pics. My decision to go down this path was almost wholly driven by the psychology of it all. There was no way I could pick up the rifle and think crazy thoughts of revenge every time I put it to shoulder. So now - when she's done - I hope I will smile and think of how those guys- whoever was responsible for this scam - were probably picked on in the playground and that's their way of feeling like a big and clever men. I've got a nice gun. They will always be cheap.

Thankfully I'm not cash strapped. I can shrug it off. Even though it was sore and I lost a good gun. But imagine if it had been an old bloke parting with a chunk of pension. Or an 18 year old lad buying his first gun.

Shame on anyone trying to pull a fast one. Thankfully the vast majority of people I've met and dealt with have been real gentlemen.

What's the answer? Name and shame? Don't buy or trade outside of BBS? Set up a trader star rating like good deals on here?

Any thoughts appreciated.

heres the rifle in question - as I bought it. I added the Weaver.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/...psq0hsosey.png

[18 Wheeler]

... In our increasingly litigious society I think it's unjust that we can't just name and shame. Anyone agree or disagree?

No problem naming and shaming, given you've presumably got some communications from the vendor etc. Just do it.

...I have never paid Venom money and never would without paperwork...

Correct. Even then you don't actually know what's currently inside and condition.

...is the result of a Venom or V-Mach tune really THAT much better than stripping, deburring, polishing and slipping in a tinbum guide kit in it? ...

Depends on who does it, a tune is more than just parts. I'd argue that better "tunes" are available, V-Mach certainly aren't top of the pile anymore and the character of some of their tunes isn't as popular as it once was.


The Venom's attract collectors owing to the history and a bit of rose-tinted vision, like many collectables really.