Call for airgun licencing in England

[secretagentmole]

Any increase (I doubt the stats) in cat deaths due to aiguns is more likely due to the increase in the cat population and the increase in housing density and the popularity of gardening over the last 20 years. Also, perhaps the increase in accuracy, rather than power of the airguns.

Maybe it is just down to faster reporting, what was a local news story now will make headlines on the Daily Fail, The Bun or Cracked Mirror quickly.

[johnbaz]

Hi all

It was on Radio Sheffield several times today that the cat protection league are calling for licences the same as Scotland but here in England

Maybe we should lobby for a licence for cats due to the amount of wild birds they kill each year




John

[Harrympope]

Hi all

It was on Radio Sheffield several times today that the cat protection league are calling for licences the same as Scotland but here in England

Maybe we should lobby for a licence for cats due to the amount of wild birds they kill each year




John

Unbelievable. I feel like for you guys over there .out here in Rural America feral cats that are not dedicated Barn cats are gotten rid of.i you know (the 3 S's--shoot --shovel--shut up)I have cats for mouse control at my place but they do much harm to native birds.these do good nuts need to be stopped worldwide.

[TonyL]

Hi all

It was on Radio Sheffield several times today that the cat protection league are calling for licences the same as Scotland but here in England


John

And this would have exactly WHAT effect on the scrotes??

When will they realise, it's not the gun, it's the person? And if not an Airgun, Mr A-Hole will use some other means of cruelty...brick, poison etc etc.

[snock]

But you can add terms and conditions to the license. Like they are to be kept on your property unless on a leash or in a secure cage being transported to the vets like dogs! I support the reintroduction of the dog license. All of my dogs are chipped and registered as the law requires.

I know people who own cats who are avid bird watchers, but their fur lined psychos have their own exercise pen which is a bolt on to the conservatory, it is basically a cat aviary with climbing poles. It covers most of the back garden, they leave their little piles of defecation in their owner's property. They do not slaughter song birds or voles, they are two happy mogs, who have a safe and secure existence.

Never gonna happen.

[AllanM]

"Article 1 of the First Protocol: Protection of property

The protection of property gives every person the right to peaceful enjoyment of their possessions.

This imposes an obligation on the State not to:

interfere with peaceful enjoyment of property;
deprive a person of their possessions; or
subject a person’s possession to control.

However, there will be no violation of this right if such interference, deprivation or control is carried out lawfully and in the public interest.

The concept of property and possessions includes tangible things like land and money but also includes contractual rights; shares; leases; claims for compensation; intellectual property rights; statutory rights to benefits etc.

The genuine, effective exercise of this right does not only depend on the State's duty not to interfere, but it may also require positive measures to protect property to be taken. This is particularly the case where there is a direct link between the measures a property owner may legitimately expect from the authorities and the effective enjoyment of his or her possessions. So, for example, a public authority’s negligence that leads to property destruction may breach this right.

This right also imposes an obligation on the government to take necessary and reasonable steps to protect property, for example in the event of natural disasters, but only to the extent that is reasonable in the circumstances.

Any interference with this right must be subject to conditions provided for by law and must achieve a fair balance between the general public interest and the protection of an individual’s property rights.

What is considered to be in the public interest is often left to the Government to decide, but any interference must strike a fair balance between the demands of the general interests of the community and the requirements of the individual’s fundamental rights. A lack of appropriate compensation would be likely to be considered disproportionate."

https://www.liberty-human-rights.org...ction-property

In my view licensing, in Scotland or England, is fundamentally disproportionate: In effect the punishment of 100% of airgun shooters for the crimes of perhaps one tenth of one percent.

Secondly, the removal of property without compensation is a total no-no, full stop.

The shooting associations should be all over this.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I have said this before, the shooting organisations representing Scottish airgunners should fight really hard to ensure that anyone who loses their airgun by not being granted a licence receives adequate compensation.

True, it won't change the law but the thought of having to pay out vast sums of money might make the SNP bigots a bit more circumspect and force them to adopt a much more sensible approach to licencing.

[gingernut]

It's slightly ironic that the man who drove the legislation through is now in the political wilderness. Pushed over onto the ejector seat and the button pressed. For whatever reason. But what a legacy.

I can think of many reasons why I would not put him in charge of anything above a paper round.
Well done Scots Lass.

[GoodWILLHunting]

Never gonna happen.

Give it 10 years Pete

As you know, up here it started as a one man campaign waged after the death of a wee boy.

When licensing comes in in Scotland it'll be ten years since I joined this site, almost exactly to within a few days. I joined after a couple of years of just lurking the board, because the campaigner (Tommy) who'd been calling for an outright ban started to gain tangible popular traction with the wider public (driven on by the tabloid media) prompting the cross spectrum political elements up here to vow on action, if elected. That was enough for me to sit up and pay attention and signalled to me that something was going to change.

From there the campaign grew arms and legs and we are where we are, we've actually had a better outcome than I'd have reckoned on back in the darkest days of developments. Although I know many on here who didn't pay attention, or weren't around, at the time, will find that hard to believe.

It's simple arithmetic, there are more cat lovers or those sympathetic to cats (and bandwagon jumping flag waving antis) than there are airgun enthusiasts (those willing to stand up and be counted). Get enough cat lovers onboard gee'ed on by the anti PR savvy machine and story hungry media ,and the political opportunists won't be far behind.

You have to start acting now. Get on to BASCs' and ask whats happening to counter this! I know many air gunners don't hold with the idea that BASC is a natural home for air gunners, but I'd point out that they did sterling work for us in Scotland, my own opinion is that we'd be far far worse off without their support and engagement with the consultation.

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It's also worth mentioning that journalists can and will read this board should the story develop, can you imagine the headline?

"Air Gunners think Cats are the problem, Cat should be licensed not us".

Think before you allow your fingers to run off at the keyboard

[RobF]

Give it 10 years Pete

As you know, up here it started as a one man campaign waged after the death of a wee boy.

When licensing comes in in Scotland it'll be ten years since I joined this site, almost exactly to within a few days. I joined after a couple of years of just lurking the board, because the campaigner (Tommy) who'd been calling for an outright ban started to gain tangible popular traction with the wider public (driven on by the tabloid media) prompting the cross spectrum political elements up here to vow on action, if elected. That was enough for me to sit up and pay attention and signalled to me that something was going to change.

From there the campaign grew arms and legs and we are where we are, we've actually had a better outcome than I'd have reckoned on back in the darkest days of developments. Although I know many on here who didn't pay attention, or weren't around, at the time, will find that hard to believe.

It's simple arithmetic, there are more cat lovers or those sympathetic to cats (and bandwagon jumping flag waving antis) than there are airgun enthusiasts (those willing to stand up and be counted). Get enough cat lovers onboard gee'ed on by the anti PR savvy machine and story hungry media ,and the political opportunists won't be far behind.

You have to start acting now. Get on to BASCs' and ask whats happening to counter this! I know many air gunners don't hold with the idea that BASC is a natural home for air gunners, but I'd point out that they did sterling work for us in Scotland, my own opinion is that we'd be far far worse off without their support and engagement with the consultation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's also worth mentioning that journalists can and will read this board should the story develop, can you imagine the headline?

"Air Gunners think Cats are the problem, Cat should be licensed not us".

Think before you allow your fingers to run off at the keyboard

So we just need to watch out for the first child mauled by a domestic cat then...

[Black Beard]

We are talking about protecting cats here and I am pretty sure the thing which causes the most assaults of cats is.... other cats.

[DJP]

...True, it won't change the law but the thought of having to pay out vast sums of money might make the SNP bigots a bit more circumspect and force them to adopt a much more sensible approach to licencing.

I suspect that's why the government took the approach that it did to the Brocock ban (ie that existing owners would be granted a license) in order to avoid paying compo.

The SNP little Hitlers seem to be ignoring that.

We don't have class actions in the UK, but the shooting associations only need launch a Human Rights challenge on behalf of one shooter in order to set a precedent and remind the SNP of their legal obligations.

[Lashenden]

There's a dynamic in this that we all know instinctively, but that needs to be clearly articulated if further gun (firearms and air weapon) legislation is to be challenged successfully. Modern politics is constructed around 'communities of victimhood'. This used to be the chosen tactic of a particular part of the left, but now it's just as much (even more?) the preferred method of the populist right. Both sides in Brexit, populist nationalist politics throughout Europe, ethnic, gender, migrant groups, even cat obsessives all get their political traction by identifying themselves as an oppressed minority, the helpless victims of another group whose existence explains their own unsatisfactory situation. Their request is always that this 'illegitimate opposition' has to be silenced by government action. Over the last 30 years gun owners have become something of a 'go to' group for many communities of victimhood. This lovely internet makes it very easy to find a constituency - we're one too; just look at us on this forum, bound together by our sense of grievance!
So in some ways our light-hearted instincts are spot-on. Competitive victimhood is the name of the new media game. The Cats Protection League need to challenged by figuring them in turn as the oppressors of another aggrieved group so that their voice is no longer legitimate on this issue (I'm more than happy for them to run cat adoption agencies). We all know that air gunners killing cats is a relatively small social problem, but to challenge this 'victim narrative' we need to find common cause with others who feel victimised by the CPL. That's probably not BASC because BASC looks like the oppressor in all sorts of ways (very white, very male, very rural and very invested in killing animals). It's probably the wildlife charities and Chris Packham.

[Garvin]

We don't have class actions in the UK, but the shooting associations only need launch a Human Rights challenge on behalf of one shooter in order to set a precedent and remind the SNP of their legal obligations.

I completely agree with this. A benefit of a well-funded legal challenge even if it fails is that it lays down a marker that shooters are not going to put up with arbitrary moves against us without a fight.

The BASC could start raising money for a legal fighting fund for the purpose, and make it easy to pay in without it being linked to their membership/marketing departments...

I'm sure I read recently that class actions are now possible in the UK? Not sure about this or whether it's relevant.

[1952paul0]

Thats not what i meant. I meant that while the authorities would like us to stop plinking in our back gardens, i dont believe its enforceable due to it being orivate proprty. As long as the pellets do not leave the boundary and you are not causing a noise nuisance, its possibly a grey area open to misinterpretation just like the 'within 50m of a carriageway' legislation that is often debated.
No it will not be a reason to own, but i cant see them being able to stop you from doing what you want on private property.

they can stop you on whatever property your on if your breaking the law.

[1952paul0]

I completely agree with this. A benefit of a well-funded legal challenge even if it fails is that it lays down a marker that shooters are not going to put up with arbitrary moves against us without a fight.

The BASC could start raising money for a legal fighting fund for the purpose, and make it easy to pay in without it being linked to their membership/marketing departments...

I'm sure I read recently that class actions are now possible in the UK? Not sure about this or whether it's relevant.

the brockock tac`s guns . didn't stop the blind man from taking them without even an act of parliament and no compensation given . If you where not able to obtain a firearms certificate they took em. Despite all and sundry challenges and pleadings they took our handguns our automatic rifles, you even have to obtain a skirmishing license for those type of none lethal weapons. I`m sorry, if the powers be decide you need a license then you need a license end of.