The great Gat(sby) controversy, Prototype or Home/factory/whatever made???

[edbear2]

Yes or no, no if's or buts....So it will be on probabilty / your personal opinion.

Discussion here if you want to assess all the "evidence" and various opinions etc.

https://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread...Harrington-Gat

Is the pop out shown a serius prototype with a view to production do you believe from the evidence /opinions discussed?

Or....... again due to opinions /ideas discussed do you think something else, ie. made by someone with the skills access to the gear for whatever reason as a project?

ATB, ED

[ccdjg]

This will be interesting. Thanks for setting it up Ed. We have to be clear to voters though that we are not voting on this being a James Harrington prototype, which is impossible for anyone to say with 100% certainty, but whether or not it is a serious prototype made by an unnamed skilled engineer with a view to possible commercialisation.

[Garvin]

Well I voted for prototype but I actually think there's only a little greater than 50% chance it is, based mainly on the fact that John, with his vast experience of collecting, examining and recording spring air pistols thinks it is. Otherwise, I wouldn't venture an opinion.

Can we assume that votes for prototype or summat else are based on a greater than 50% likelihood?

[edbear2]

Well I voted for prototype but I actually think there's only a little greater than 50% chance it is, based mainly on the fact that John, with his vast experience of collecting, examining and recording spring air pistols thinks it is. Otherwise, I wouldn't venture an opinion.

Can we assume that votes for prototype or summat else are based on a greater than 50% likelihood?

I voted home made due to the reasons in my various answers and 49 years (since 1973) of seeing blokes at the various places I worked making all sorts of stuff from guns to sets of Roman armour in miniature for a toddler



ATB, ED

[Garvin]

I voted home made due to the reasons in my various answers and 49 years (since 1973) of seeing blokes at the various places I worked making all sorts of stuff from guns to sets of Roman armour in miniature for a toddler



ATB, ED

Nerds.

[Garvin]

Let's face it, we're all airgun nerds.

[edbear2]

Nerds.

No, craftsmen of a type we will never see agin, the guy who made the Armour was ex Vicker's Armstrong ( TSR2 etc,) (another bloke from Vickers made a working 1/6th scale 32 pounder cannon, right down to scale lashings and wheels, another bloke from Vickers had decking and a summer house made from years of taking home oddments and bigger bits of expensive hardwoods, and a third made a 1/4 scale Cooper 500 racer..those just sprung to mind from writing Vickers).

Anyhows, the guy who made the Armour's normal job was a panel maker in the proper term, ie. aluminium bodies fo rthe Cobras, or panels for anything that came in, so he could rattle up a Ferrari Daytona bonnet or a Rolls Royce one off S3 door from flat metal in no time, or a wing panel or cowling for a warbird (he actually made all the doors for the S3 convertable 4 to 2 door conversions we did, as the door skins sent from Rolls Royce were rubbish!

He was working away one break and I wandered over to see if he wanted a brew, and he gave me a liitle job, a Sword blade in two halves to weld up (in Al)....I then saw the Helmet under his bench, and over the next few days during breaks he did those shin guards, a chest plate (with all the abbs) and some bits that hang that his wife attached to some felt.



It looked like a miniature Russell Crow outfit, and was for his grandson.

As I put before our little gang had rifles which were made by a mates dad, but nothing on this level, as our "Lee Enfields" were just stained Ply silhouettes with gate bolts to make clicky noises.

However in close combat they made short work of the better off kid's Airfix SLRs which snapped like carrots in bayonet fencing

Most of these guys were getting on in the early 1980's, sadly all gone now, but I was so lucky to work with them and have them show me stuff.

We are talking folks that did not bat an eyelid when asked to build something like this from scratch;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7713992881863/

ATB, ED

[ggggr]

I voted for home made also Ed.
I know the Victorians over engineered things and then later on tried to make them cheaper. I think the gun is a home made thing for a son or grandson, and as I have said, I think the trigger set up and the 3 mainsprings are so the gun could "grow" with the child. Ie Start off with 2 springs in the gun and set the trigger and then as the child grew, add the 3rd spring and reset the trigger.
Why the 3 springs? Im wondering if they were out of something else (clutch springs maybe) . Why 3 instead of 2 , like the counterwound Bsa springs? I dont think anyone intending to produce a gun would use 3 springs with the intention that you could take the nut off the barrel and remove one spring for maybe shooting indoors. That probe that looks like a jet holder, could be a jet holder.( Im not saying it is) , but it would be easy to put a 5/16 tap down it if it was off something else.

Lets say (for arguments sake) that the gun isnt a prototype. BUT someone wanted to make one for his son or grandson, AND he had a gat in front of him to copy, but he wanted to improve it (improve a gat) and also make it a little different so it stood out for his son/ grandson.


Im guessing you would copy most of the dimensions? Im also guessing brass tube comes in certain sizes, so if you got the tube with a bore of .177 (4.5mil?) then the OD of the tube would be standard? Im guessing this would limit (without turning it down and weakening it) what thread could be cut on it? If it was someone in the engineering game or a model engineer, then they would have BSF and BA taps and dies. I've got BA taps here and I know I've got a BSF tap for cleaning up the nut that holds the piston washer on a Cadet and Major. Id be interested to see how the piston washer and the "bobbin" that the sear engages on are fixed to the brass tube.

Anyhow--so our engineer has access to taps so can sort that out. The rest could be done (Im guessing) by a tin basher etc. I know an old bloke, (retired) who used to do gates and railings and when he started it wasnt all Mig or even Arc welding. It was a more skilled job.
If he is capable of making ornate gates (And i know he has done a few for footballers and retired footballers ) and bending metal to make ornate fire baskets etc, Im pretty sure he could bend up the body of that frame.

Anyhow for me, its a home made job for a child to use.

Going off the numbers who have voted, Id say only serious collectors actually give a stuff about gats/ pop outs.
Id only be interested in one again if it was something like the one we are talking about or another old one--------and that would only be to give as a present to someone.

If you get bored Ed, make one! But no metric threads.

[Garvin]

No, craftsmen of a type we will never see agin, the guy who made the Armour was ex Vicker's Armstrong ( TSR2 etc,) (another bloke from Vickers made a working 1/6th scale 32 pounder cannon, right down to scale lashings and wheels, another bloke from Vickers had decking and a summer house made from years of taking home oddments and bigger bits of expensive hardwoods, and a third made a 1/4 scale Cooper 500 racer..those just sprung to mind from writing Vickers).

Anyhows, the guy who made the Armour's normal job was a panel maker in the proper term, ie. aluminium bodies fo rthe Cobras, or panels for anything that came in, so he could rattle up a Ferrari Daytona bonnet or a Rolls Royce one off S3 door from flat metal in no time, or a wing panel or cowling for a warbird (he actually made all the doors for the S3 convertable 4 to 2 door conversions we did, as the door skins sent from Rolls Royce were rubbish!

He was working away one break and I wandered over to see if he wanted a brew, and he gave me a liitle job, a Sword blade in two halves to weld up (in Al)....I then saw the Helmet under his bench, and over the next few days during breaks he did those shin guards, a chest plate (with all the abbs) and some bits that hang that his wife attached to some felt.



It looked like a miniature Russell Crow outfit, and was for his grandson.

As I put before our little gang had rifles which were made by a mates dad, but nothing on this level, as our "Lee Enfields" were just stained Ply silhouettes with gate bolts to make clicky noises.

However in close combat they made short work of the better off kid's Airfix SLRs which snapped like carrots in bayonet fencing

Most of these guys were getting on in the early 1980's, sadly all gone now, but I was so lucky to work with them and have them show me stuff.

We are talking folks that did not bat an eyelid when asked to build something like this from scratch;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7713992881863/

ATB, ED

I know what you mean about that generation Ed. My grandad was a builder who left school at 14 and did carpentry night classes. As a kid after he retired in the '70s I would watch him in awe, cutting with his trusty Tyzack handsaw, drilling or planing with his beloved Stanleys. His eye was so good he didn't need a spirit level. I remember him telling me that one of his nightschool exams was to file a piece of steel into a perfect square. One degree out on any of the corners was a fail.

[ccdjg]

Guy, I think most of the suppositions you make are far less likely than the simpler explanation that it was an experimental prototype (and remember I am not saying categorically that it is)
.
For example:
made for a son or grandson, Comment: It's heavier than a Gat, harder to cock and those grips aren't made for comfortable shooting, so not exactly ideal for a child.
Why the 3 springs? Im wondering if they were out of something else (clutch springs maybe) Comment: This person must have had a lot of luck in finding spare parts exactly fit for purpose, as those springs are a perfect fit for barrel diameter, chamber diameter and air cylinder length.
That probe could be a jet holder ......it would be easy to put a 5/16 tap down it if it was off something else. Comment: Same answer as above, how lucky can you be? Also, you try putting a 5/16 tap down a thin walled jet holder that is already threaded and see what happens.
someone wanted to make one for his son or grandson, AND he had a gat in front of him to copy, Comment: Where is this mythical dad or granddad going to get his Gat to copy? The mystery pistol was almost certainly made pre-war, and there were hardly any Gats about then. I can't see someone buying a new Gat in 1939 just to take apart and make a copy.


We know that in 1938 James Harrington was designing his Gat. We know that he was trying to patent his design improvements. He would certainly have made a few prototypes. Don't you think that it slightly more feasible that the mystery pistol could be one of his prototypes, rather than your father/son Gat copying scenario, accompanied by lots of lucky spare part finds?




By way of interest, as you are so convinced the mystery pistol has no possible James Harrington connection, can you tell me what sort of prototype would need to turn up to make you think it could possibly be a Harrington prototype?

Please don't say it would have to be stamped 'Made by T.J.Harrington' !

Cheers,
John

[ggggr]

John--Im not saying "lucky " spare part finds. And Im not saying that the bits are not home made. Im saying if you looked for bits that might do, you might find them. Before I had to move from my old house, I used to have the paint tub full of "stuff" that might do for other things. Odd brackets, washers, bit of metal , things that you might come across and just not throw out (until you come to move ) .
When I tinker sometimes it goes from an easy job, to boxes of washers, bits of leather, screws that might fit but need cutting down etc.
That was how I found out a light switch plate screw (3.5mm I think) is the right thread for a Relum trigger adjuster screw (the one that goes in the stock screw) . It was a "lucky find" , but I actually wondered whether it would fit and unscrewed it out of the light switch plate to find out.

Just some things dont add up with that Gat as I've said. Why 3 springs and not 2 or 1? Why those grip plates instead of wooden ones? (Most of the prototypes you put pics up of have crap wooden grips) I do think that a semi skilled bloke could have made it --and if he did, he would have started by looking at a Gat.
Look at the "Frankenpistol" --------based on the Webley Premier. A bit crude and the barrel pivot needed some sort of bodge on it. Now imagine it was not up on here on on Dannys Site--and move on 40 years. How would someone look at that? The grips screws are Metric, the barrel catch isnt Webley. It has a barrel pivot pin instead of the proper screw and lockscrew. Im not saying it would fool an "Expert" (and even experts are wrong sometimes) but it was never intended to do.

Ive no idea of the history of Gats or Harrington Gats and most of them look crude anyway.
You yourself thought it was home made until you checked the threads. So because it has 5/16 BSF and 4BA thread you have changed your mind.

What would it take to convince me it was a Harrington prototype?Im not sure you could, but probably something that looked more like the Harrington Gat than other pop outs, and had the more basic trigger. 2 trigger adjusting screws is a bit OTT on a pop out even if they are hidden. What would it take to convince you it wasnt a Harrington? "HOME MADE" or "INSERT NAME HERE" ?

I dont like gats but various odd designs always intrigue me---how someone has thought round a problem.
Im not bothered if it is a Harrington prototype or not. It is interesting
IF it ISNT a Harrington prototype, would you want it any less?

[ccdjg]

No, Guy, if it I could prove it wasn't a prototype I would still want to keep it.

I know you are disparaging about pop-outs, which is fair enough, but when it comes to commercialisation they have made more money for their creators than any other airgun. Plenty of financial motivation for exploring improved designs. Even Diana made a prototype pop-out with a in-built Giss system, believe it or not!

[micky2]

When l bought the said pistol back in 2004, l bought it as a home made curiosity based on the gat/pop out design. and l am still of that opinion. perhaps we need to get in touch with a medium, who might be able to help us.

[Powderfinger]

There must still be people alive who knew James Harrington or were involved in the disposal of his business. If only they would find these threads and tell us if they know anything about development of the Gat.

[evert]

......
Why the 3 springs? Im wondering if they were out of something else (clutch springs maybe) . Why 3 instead of 2 , like the counterwound Bsa springs?......

To me, the three springs is another clue to the gun being made by someone as a home/school project.
Finding suitable springs can be hard, I had similar problems when I was 13 and my parents didn't want to buy me airguns...
A bike pump, some steel tubing, and a lot of experimenting finally had me shooting reclaimed pellets at low velocity.

Sometimes you end up to stacking springs because you have no sources for the spring you really need.