RWS brass - loose after neck sizing. Any ideas?

[severnsider]

I have just de-primed/neck-sized (Lee die), cleaned, trimmed and re-primed 200 .308 cases, which included 50 RWS cases (previously loaded by HPS with 155 SMK). Made a start on reloading the RWS cases, only to find that the neck tension is wildly variable, from normal to so loose that the bullet drops in under its own weight.

The RWS cases have been treated no differently to the other (on this occasion PPU and HPS-TR) cases that I dealt with in the same batch; all have been fired in my own rifle, and all the other cases have reloaded with what I believe to be a "normal" neck tension when seating the bullets.

I'm fairly cheesed off with this, as I had anticipated that the RWS brass would have been of decent quality.

Since it had been reloaded by HPS I'm presuming it was the "once-fired" stuff that they pick up. However, it was rubbish (>2MOA) when I shot it last weekend at 200 yards. Perhaps the brass was crap when they reloaded it. I'll never know.

Question then..... is it safe to deprime the cases which now have a live primer with the Lee die if I do it slowly, or should I just make the primed cases unusable and dispose of them?

[Turnup]

De-priming a case is very unlikely to set the primer off, they are much less sensitive to pressure than you might think. Some un-scientific experiments I did a while ago now could not set off a primer by crushing (mashing) it flat in an engineering vice (surprised me too). It seems to take a sharp blow to set them off.

That said, I would take some precautions. Suggest eye protection and lay a loose cloth over the case and die so any shards released will be significantly slowed down.

[Randy Bohannon]

My experience mirrors the above, it is safe to deprime if you are slow and careful.

I got some of the once fired RWS brass that the range office at Bisley used to sell ( Do they still sell any?) and found that the necks were thicker and harder than the rest of my brass.

A Lee neck sizing can be a little difficult to operate consistently in these circumstances.

Try partial full length resizing and see if that makes them more consistent before junking the batch.

[kennyc]

I have just de-primed/neck-sized (Lee die), cleaned, trimmed and re-primed 200 .308 cases, which included 50 RWS cases (previously loaded by HPS with 155 SMK). Made a start on reloading the RWS cases, only to find that the neck tension is wildly variable, from normal to so loose that the bullet drops in under its own weight.

The RWS cases have been treated no differently to the other (on this occasion PPU and HPS-TR) cases that I dealt with in the same batch; all have been fired in my own rifle, and all the other cases have reloaded with what I believe to be a "normal" neck tension when seating the bullets.

I'm fairly cheesed off with this, as I had anticipated that the RWS brass would have been of decent quality.

Since it had been reloaded by HPS I'm presuming it was the "once-fired" stuff that they pick up. However, it was rubbish (>2MOA) when I shot it last weekend at 200 yards. Perhaps the brass was crap when they reloaded it. I'll never know.

Question then..... is it safe to deprime the cases which now have a live primer with the Lee die if I do it slowly, or should I just make the primed cases unusable and dispose of them?

if you are using a Lee collet die you will probably need to adjust it for each brand of brass, I have used RWS from the NRA for several years without problems, and its on at least 8-9 reloading cycles, very good stuff, however I full length size.

[severnsider]

Gents, thank you all for your comments. I shall deprime them carefully and have another go at sizing them.
The Lee die has been fine with all other brass, but I understand Kenny's thought that it might need adjustment for different brands of brass. I've not full-length sized after it's been shot through my rifle and have had no issues so far.

I have now noticed (by feel with a thin rod), however, that a discernible annular "ridge" appears in the case mouth at the point where the mouth begins to splay outwards, and the bullet will drop into the case but then stop as it reaches this ridge.

The outside of the case does not appear to be buckled in this area, nor to reduce in diameter at this point.

I'm surmising that the sizing pin extends well into the case at this point, but I will check. It's almost as though the brass has sized onto the sizing pin at the lower section of the mouth but not near the top end (if that makes sense). I'll check case thickness in this area too. It has me scratching my head!

[Black Beard]

If some of the necks are springier then maybe annealing them would take them to a uniform hardness.

Measure the expanding ball. And the sized cases without the expanding ball fitted. Might give you some ideas.

[severnsider]

If some of the necks are springier then maybe annealing them would take them to a uniform hardness.

Measure the expanding ball. And the sized cases without the expanding ball fitted. Might give you some ideas.

Thanks Andy - I've screwed the sizing die in another 1/4 turn and things have tightened up a bit, so I'll reprime them, fill 'em and shoot 'em tomorrow and see how they go!

[zanes]

As you know I had similar issues with the lee collet die. One point I have never understood is that other than perhaps increasing the available leverage (or, perhaps making it easier to get more weight on the lever) what effect does adjusting the die have- AFAIK all the die does is squeeze the neck onto that internal mandrel/decapping pin and there's no way to adjust that, the amount of "squash" available?

[severnsider]

As you know I had similar issues with the lee collet die. One point I have never understood is that other than perhaps increasing the available leverage what effect does adjust the die do- AFAIK all the die does is squeeze the neck onto that internal mandrel/decapping pin and there's no way to adjust that?

That's exactly what I thought, although the Lee instructions do suggest that another 1/4 turn will "improve grip". So, that's what I've done and problem solved. Wasted 50 primers though!

"Mandrel" was the word I was looking for earlier....... thank you

[Randy Bohannon]

Before you do check whether they chamber or not.

that annular ring in the case mouth is called a "doughnut" by homeloaders and results from over (or misuse) of bushing type neck dies.

in your case I think it's not caused by you but is the reason the rest of the neck didn't size until you pushed harder.

i suspect you will be fine with them on subsequent sidings but please do report back.

[Randy Bohannon]

As you know I had similar issues with the lee collet die. One point I have never understood is that other than perhaps increasing the available leverage (or, perhaps making it easier to get more weight on the lever) what effect does adjusting the die have- AFAIK all the die does is squeeze the neck onto that internal mandrel/decapping pin and there's no way to adjust that, the amount of "squash" available?

Because the stop point In the vertical is a function of boos lmuch the brass is squeezed.

as the brass is more coin pressings than the steel adjusting the die down means that the college must pinch the brass more leading to ( within limits) moore coipete deformation of the crytaL structure oif the brass at the case neck= More work hardening=less springback= greater tension.

[amc577]

I have used the lee collet die in 3 different calibres and found them very hit and miss...you are supposed to put 20 lbs pressure via your press but it is very difficult to judge this.My rcbs neck sizing die has been very consistent with my 308.
You can take out the central mandrel on the Lee collet die and turn it down a little to increase the squeeze a little. The collet die theory is fine, but not the practice.

I did have a problem with a few rws cases in 308...I full length sized a few of them and they would still not chamber in my rifle..I fls some of them 3 times..still no go..chucked them. Very odd.

De priming live primer with the lee decapping die...never had a problem..just take it slowly . Do not ram the press lever down.

amc577

[severnsider]

Before you do check whether they chamber or not.

that annular ring in the case mouth is called a "doughnut" by homeloaders and results from over (or misuse) of bushing type neck dies.

in your case I think it's not caused by you but is the reason the rest of the neck didn't size until you pushed harder.

i suspect you will be fine with them on subsequent sidings but please do report back.

I've no idea what HPS use to re-size the brass that they reload; perhaps a bushing-type die, hence the problem. As you say, it shouldn't happen with the Lee die.

I have chambered a couple of them and they slip in just fine.

Something new to learn every day! Thanks again for your observations.

[severnsider]

I have used the lee collet die in 3 different calibres and found them very hit and miss...you are supposed to put 20 lbs pressure via your press but it is very difficult to judge this.My rcbs neck sizing die has been very consistent with my 308.
You can take out the central mandrel on the Lee collet die and turn it down a little to increase the squeeze a little. The collet die theory is fine, but not the practice.

I did have a problem with a few rws cases in 308...I full length sized a few of them and they would still not chamber in my rifle..I fls some of them 3 times..still no go..chucked them. Very odd.

De priming live primer with the lee decapping die...never had a problem..just take it slowly . Do not ram the press lever down.

amc577

I'm using them in .223, .308 and 8mm and think that they're OK so far. As for the pressure on the press, I just give it a good handful but, as you say, it's difficult to judge. I was under the impression that the higher the pressure the better and had not given any thought to trying to keep it at the 20lb mark.

The live primers popped out without any issues....... my first time, so I was a little wary!

[Treebone]

Before you do check whether they chamber or not.

that annular ring in the case mouth is called a "doughnut" by homeloaders and results from over (or misuse) of bushing type neck dies.

in your case I think it's not caused by you but is the reason the rest of the neck didn't size until you pushed harder.

i suspect you will be fine with them on subsequent sidings but please do report back.

Wrong, doughnuts form between the junction of the neck and the shoulder and are a result of brass flow when reforming or necking down cases to a smaller calibre

TB.