12 foot pound Law Who's fault is it???

[lensman57]

mmmmm .1100 applications so far. 6 licenses granted. freedom of information request. so i see the scheme is working sofar. the scheme to get rid of guns that is.
applications

From 1st to 31st July:
1098 Application made for an air gun licence.
6 (six) were granted

What can we deduce from this?

From the first figure it seems either a lot of people are still unaware they need a licence or are simply choosing not to apply perhaps understandably given most people cannot meet the draconian requirements and will have their property forcefully seized.


as terry posted before, turkeys voting for christmas.

If those figures are correct, it would a lot easier to get an FAC for a .308 magnum.

A.G

[lensman57]

"I heard that some forces in Scotland were demanding a 500m range with a solid backstop. What kind of air rifle do they think they are dealing with?"

A simple case in ballistics. Given a .25 caliber air rifle with 70 ft.lbs of ME and a 36 grain pellet with a BC of 0.042 ( this is very high for a pellet ) the POI drop at 200 meters is in the reigion of 5 meters, at 500 meters the pellet drop is roughly 43 meters. If the pellet was shot from the shoulder of a man of average height it would be in the ground before it reaches the 160 meters mark. I think that in Scotland they must be confusing air rifles with .22 magnums.

A.G

[majex45]

I do think we could do with more liberal power level laws relating mainly to PCP's that can be shot easily at higher levels than the standard tuned spring rifles.

I don't shoot rabbits with an air rifle as I think this is cruel to the rabbit (my ability to hit a small target, if you are sure you can hit a vital spot at the range I salute your skill).
Perhaps if 12 ftlb+ airgus were on the equivalent of a shotgun certificate rather than S1 FAC it would improve things.
The person would be deemed to be suitable but without the draconian rules imposed on S1 owners.
Perhaps BAASC or somesuch could take this up with the revision of the firearms rules now being considered.

[bighit]

If those figures are correct, it would a lot easier to get an FAC for a .308 magnum.

A.G

the figure might be higher now but you also have forgotten the people that have current FAC and SGC certificates and that they can hold their air guns on them till their FAC and SGC are due for renewal.

[lensman57]

I don't shoot rabbits with an air rifle as I think this is cruel to the rabbit (my ability to hit a small target, if you are sure you can hit a vital spot at the range I salute your skill).
Perhaps if 12 ftlb+ airgus were on the equivalent of a shotgun certificate rather than S1 FAC it would improve things.
The person would be deemed to be suitable but without the draconian rules imposed on S1 owners.
Perhaps BAASC or somesuch could take this up with the revision of the firearms rules now being considered.

You are talking sense my friend but ideally Airguns should have their own certificates if needed. I also believe that a more powerful air gun is a much more humane weapon for disposing of pests provided the accuracy is there. I doubt if any rabbit is going to survive long after being head shot by a .25 caliber 60 ft,lbs gun at the usual air rifle ranges. If the shot hits slightly off target the shock radius is so large that the vital organs will be destroyed. Air rifles are also inherently safer than a .22 rim fire IMHO.
I believe that given ideal conditions a .22 LR round can travel over a mile.

A.G

[majex45]

You are talking sense my friend but ideally Airguns should have their own certificates if needed. I also believe that a more powerful air gun is a much more humane weapon for disposing of pests provided the accuracy is there. I doubt if any rabbit is going to survive long after being head shot by a .25 caliber 60 ft,lbs gun at the usual air rifle ranges. If the shot hits slightly off target the shock radius is so large that the vital organs will be destroyed. Air rifles are also inherently safer than a .22 rim fire IMHO.
I believe that given ideal conditions a .22 LR round can travel over a mile.

A.G

You're right. My point was that sub 12 ftlb air rifles are not really suitable for vermin but the powers-that-be make it too difficult to own the proper tool.
A 12 ftlb plus air rifle should have it's own certification or an easier to get FAC as you suggest.

[sandyman1963]

I have been caught out by buying a rifle ove the legal limit.

Three years a go I partied with a fair ammount of cash on a second hand Daystate MK picked it up from a local Dealer asked if he had checked it and the reply was yeas asked what pellets he used etc.

I got home and checked it on my how chrono showed up at 13lb legged it to the club and checked it on their chrono with the same make of pellets as the RFD and it showed 13 and a bit. Straight back to the dealer who argued the toss saying I had played around with it really all in the space of two hours I think not.
After a while he agreed to re-test it and strangely it showed a tad over 13lb,chap offered to de tune it nope no way in hell refund. I reckon that he told me a fib about checking it before sale. If never been back to his shop. Once a liar always a liar in my book. Now our club get the odd spot check from Pcs plod could you imagine me being pulled by them with a hot gun not a pleasant thought at all.

Ever time I buy a rifle new or old I always insist in being there when they test it. And if second hand I take my chrono with me. Once bitten twice shy and all that.

[WILBA]

I think the after market suppliers are to blame just as much as the home engineer intent on upping the power on their air rifles. You can buy a spring over the counter to instantly take your rifle way over the limit . Take for example a rifle i own. My sumata pcp can reach 80ftlb when tuned. I can buy the necessay stuff to do this over the counter. But fitting it is the illegal part. But if you could not get hold of it without a FAC cert then that would stop said idiots in their tracks. More regulation on the sale of after market tuning parts would stop these fools dead. Chris

[Tricky-Ricky]

Regardless of the reason for it, the current 12ftlb law need reviewing and adjusting to within achievable constraints, the fact that its so stringent, and the weight of the pellet can make a vast difference in Ft-lb, coupled with manufactures not so stringent testing, and also after time a gun can often achieve more than 12 ft-lb makes it ludicrous.

Add to that, some guns are still able to be adjusted to firearm's power quite simply, and the rest with a bit of ingenuity despite anti tamper.

OK we all know 2 or 3 ft-lb can make a big differences to accuracy and trajectory, but in reality an extra 2 or 3 ft-lb is not going to make it any more lethal, given its intended use, rather than miss use, and when it comes down to it we all try and keep our guns within the limit, so its not fair that the enforcement is so stringent and carries a prison sentence! yet we all drive potentially lethal weapons every day with just a simple test.....and cause countless more misery through "accidents" than the entire legal airgun owning population.

[lensman57]

You're right. My point was that sub 12 ftlb air rifles are not really suitable for vermin but the powers-that-be make it too difficult to own the proper tool.
A 12 ftlb plus air rifle should have it's own certification or an easier to get FAC as you suggest.

Myself and many others have argued for this ad infinitum. I believe that 15~16 ft.lbs is a reasonable limit for .177 and about 22 ft.lbs for .22. At these levels they are no more dangerous than their 12ft.lbs brothers but to the usual air rifle quarry. Yes even I can see problems with a 120 ft.lbs .25 caliber rifle if it falls in theninexperinced hands ( particularly as our American friends are resorting to the use of the much more efficient bullet shaped projectiles, more and more ) but the limits I mentioned are certainly more lethal to the usual air rifle quarry but nothing else.
Many air gunners are wrongly under the impression that a 24 ft.lbs air rifle will have twice as much range as a 12 ft.lbs . This is not so as the energy bleed is subject to the inverse square law, the faster the pellet travels the quicker the rate of energy dissipation. Even a 35 ft.lbs .22 air rilfe is nearly useless at 90~100 yards so the range is not an issue. I believe that the range is a prime consideration in granting FAC for use over land as the bullets travel much further and faster than even the Diabolo design pellets.


A.G

[lensman57]

I think the after market suppliers are to blame just as much as the home engineer intent on upping the power on their air rifles. You can buy a spring over the counter to instantly take your rifle way over the limit . Take for example a rifle i own. My sumata pcp can reach 80ftlb when tuned. I can buy the necessay stuff to do this over the counter. But fitting it is the illegal part. But if you could not get hold of it without a FAC cert then that would stop said idiots in their tracks. More regulation on the sale of after market tuning parts would stop these fools dead. Chris

Since when more regulation has done any good for anybody? It is only the law abiding who gives a damn about the regulation becuase they respect the law. The criminal, the scally and the d---head have no such considerations.
The point you mention is valid but it also proves that one can not legislate for anything and everything. The proof is the simple case of legally purchasing parts that are not obtainable over the counter over here , freely from the EU.
If a law is not enforcable then it must be looked at again. A good law nearly always works. There are quite a few members of the law enforcement bodies who are good members of this forum and even they agree that the fire arms law of the UK are a mess, in particular when it comes to air rifles.
Fancy calling a 12 ft.lbs air rifle a " Fire Arm " for the sake of legal definition and put a 13 ft.lbs air rifle on the FAC along side a .224 of nearly 800 ft.lbs of ME. Nearly the same requirements all around, madness.

A.G

[Steyr]

Hello as an springer guy from the states i really like my airguns and hunt with them at least 2 times a week. i have now 18 spring piston guns and just Diana-BSA-HW about half in .177 and the other in .22 now i will use the .177 for doves and ground squirrel . but for cotton tails and the big jacks and rock chucks and fox i use ether the Diana 350-48-54 or the R1-HW80 all in .22 and the R1 is the slowest by a good bit pushing the polymags at 740fps. i don't shoot over 35 yards and they all do there job very well. So my question is Who came up with the 12 foot pound limit over there and WHY? it seems a rather big disservice to anybody that hunts and there prey! it's harder for you to hit them and for them to die.if you are going to kill something why would you not do it the fastest and best way possable ? from what i can find it was the gun makers back in the 50s-60s? who did not want the more powerful MSP airguns from the USA taking sales from english makers? or was it something else that happend to set the limit?

As a slight deviation to the main thrust of your post as to how the UK got its 12 FPE limit, I shoot both Sub 12 and FAC air.

I also shoot rim and centre fire.

In my time in shooting, I would say the rifle with the highest count of quarry against it would be the Sub 12 as it is quite, accurate, sweet shooting and will drop the quarry for the most part I want it to.

Strangely, shooting a fox with an air rifle is usually considered taboo and usually results in someone getting flamed.

Personally, if the power and the FPE is there then I would not rule out a punchy air to do the deed if the marksman ship is right but it certainly wouldn't be my first choice of rifle.

There are many who argue in the UK that an HMR is not sufficient for fox let alone an air rifle.

That said, one of the early expeditions to Africa used a Giffard to drop gazelle and impala size animals to feed themselves and there are certainly air rifles that are capable of this.

Go to the continent and they will regularly take on running and moving quarry. Again...a bit taboo in the UK. Not sporting and all that jazz. Head and neck shooting deer V's engine room shooting....

Sometimes its a case of when in Rome........

[lensman57]

As a slight deviation to the main thrust of your post as to how the UK got its 12 FPE limit, I shoot both Sub 12 and FAC air.

I also shoot rim and centre fire.

In my time in shooting, I would say the rifle with the highest count of quarry against it would be the Sub 12 as it is quite, accurate, sweet shooting and will drop the quarry for the most part I want it to.

Strangely, shooting a fox with an air rifle is usually considered taboo and usually results in someone getting flamed.

Personally, if the power and the FPE is there then I would not rule out a punchy air to do the deed if the marksman ship is right but it certainly wouldn't be my first choice of rifle.

There are many who argue in the UK that an HMR is not sufficient for fox let alone an air rifle.

That said, one of the early expeditions to Africa used a Giffard to drop gazelle and impala size animals to feed themselves and there are certainly air rifles that are capable of this.

Go to the continent and they will regularly take on running and moving quarry. Again...a bit taboo in the UK. Not sporting and all that jazz. Head and neck shooting deer V's engine room shooting....

Sometimes its a case of when in Rome........

I thought that I was the one who always stuck his head up claiming that one could kill quarry with a sub 12 rifle at 50+ range. Now I have to relinquish the crown. You are getting into unchartered territory .

A.G

[jameswrx]

^

You can't possibly shoot anything other than a snail with an air rifle old chap, just not Cricket.

Watched a chap on YouTube drop a pig with a .22 pellet from a Brocock Compatto the other day!



As for the FPE law.. what about something like South Africa here for non FAC? i.e. A max of .22 calibre allowed but no power limit and a max grain weight.

Saves any silly FPE limit but you'd be able to have up to 30FPE only self limited by the pellet speed (stability) keeping to circa 900fps. And .177 would be max around 18fpe

That way you couldn't have a .303 100fpe wolverine either (unless applying for FAC)

[lensman57]

^

You can't possibly shoot anything other than a snail with an air rifle old chap, just not Cricket.

Watched a chap on YouTube drop a pig with a .22 pellet from a Brocock Compatto the other day!



As for the FPE law.. what about something like South Africa here for non FAC? i.e. A max of .22 calibre allowed but no power limit and a max grain weight.

Saves any silly FPE limit but you'd be able to have up to 30FPE only self limited by the pellet speed (stability) keeping to circa 900fps. And .177 would be max around 18fpe

That way you couldn't have a .303 100fpe wolverine either (unless applying for FAC)

Sensible suggestions all around but where are the listening ears? They can't even get their act together to welcome the new American president.

A.G