12 foot pound Law Who's fault is it???

[charlie350]

Hello as an springer guy from the states i really like my airguns and hunt with them at least 2 times a week. i have now 18 spring piston guns and just Diana-BSA-HW about half in .177 and the other in .22 now i will use the .177 for doves and ground squirrel . but for cotton tails and the big jacks and rock chucks and fox i use ether the Diana 350-48-54 or the R1-HW80 all in .22 and the R1 is the slowest by a good bit pushing the polymags at 740fps. i don't shoot over 35 yards and they all do there job very well. So my question is Who came up with the 12 foot pound limit over there and WHY? it seems a rather big disservice to anybody that hunts and there prey! it's harder for you to hit them and for them to die.if you are going to kill something why would you not do it the fastest and best way possable ? from what i can find it was the gun makers back in the 50s-60s? who did not want the more powerful MSP airguns from the USA taking sales from english makers? or was it something else that happend to set the limit?

[lensman57]

Hello as an springer guy from the states i really like my airguns and hunt with them at least 2 times a week. i have now 18 spring piston guns and just Diana-BSA-HW about half in .177 and the other in .22 now i will use the .177 for doves and ground squirrel . but for cotton tails and the big jacks and rock chucks and fox i use ether the Diana 350-48-54 or the R1-HW80 all in .22 and the R1 is the slowest by a good bit pushing the polymags at 740fps. i don't shoot over 35 yards and they all do there job very well. So my question is Who came up with the 12 foot pound limit over there and WHY? it seems a rather big disservice to anybody that hunts and there prey! it's harder for you to hit them and for them to die.if you are going to kill something why would you not do it the fastest and best way possable ? from what i can find it was the gun makers back in the 50s-60s? who did not want the more powerful MSP airguns from the USA taking sales from english makers? or was it something else that happend to set the limit?

Since this was a government decision, it was burried in the cabinet papers and treated as secret till a few years ago. I have not seen the papers myself and I wouldn't go to court with this but I have been told that the move was actually instigated by the British Air Gun manufacturers. Back in the 60s the most powerful British Air Guns were producing around 10~11 ft.lbs. Then the German and the American guns appeared that were considerably more powerful and the British instead of upping their game decided to become protectionists and approached the government to bring in the sub 12 ft.lbs law.

At the same time an idiot who wasn't firing on all cylinders in his head, decided to take pot shots at the passing traffic with his air rifle and some news paper took it upon itself to protect the British public from this new weapon of mass destruction and the rest as they say is history.

That is what I have been told so it may not be kosher but it does make sense, knowing how things work here. If you want an air rifle that is even 0.5 ft.lbs above the 12 ft.lbs limit then you have to apply for an FAC ( fire arm certificate ) as these are classed as fire arms and getting caught in possession of one without an FAC is a very serious criminal offence with a possible lengthy jail term at Her Majesty's Pleasure.

Now the problem we have is not so much the 12 ft.lbs limit as people usually do OK with this ( they have to ) if the ranges are kept short. The problem is with the wording of the law which says, that an air rifle is considered a Fire Arm if it has the capablity to exceed 12 ft.lbs, or something very similar to this. This is a catch all law as any sub 12 air rifle is " capable " of exceeding this limit. So when the cops get hold of your gun they don't test it with the pellet that you were using but it is tested with a variety of pellets that you may not even had heard of to see if the rifle exceeds 12 ft.lbs. If so then you are in possession of a fire arm and liable for prosecution.

Therefore in order to stay on the right side of this stupid law we tune our guns to about 11 ft.lbs and some as low as 10.5. A few years ago the manufacturers decided to put AT ( anti tamper ) on the guns in order to appear to" self police " the air rifle community and any imported gun has " voluntary AT " installed.

Getting an FAC is also very difficult as not withstanding the gun security issues, special safes, alarms, background checks, health checks etc, you also need to give good reson why you'd want a 16 ft.lbs air rifle for example and where you would intend to use it. It is not acceptable to say that you just want one. I think that eventually they want to get rid of wide ownership of air rifles and guns in general but I am sure that the gentry and the rich will still be able to keep their guns but the ordinary public .!

Regards,

A.G

[Phil Russell]

Very interesting bit of history from Lensman, thank you. Regarding the introduction of the 12 law, is the information somewhere in the public domain now? Are the Cabinet papers released to the public? Or are they squirreled away somewhere for the next 'so many years'? I have no intention of looking for them myself but it might be a nice project for someone.
Regarding AT, I can see the motivation for this as I have in the past been sold rifles s/h that when tested have exceeded the limit ... hasty afternoon to bring them down ensued. But not all have been pcp (all were pre-AT) rifles; about half have been springers. Most pcps have clearly had 'bits replaced or tampered with' to gain the extra power (I have no intention here of saying what or how!) while springers have generally been fitted with super strong after market springs or extra preload on standard springs.
But will AT deter the dedicated person intent on upping a pcp? Somehow I doubt it. Most AT will no doubt deter the inquisitive but it is clear that most 'home engineers' can get round it with a little ingenuity. When thinking about AT I do find it sad though that as well as deterring the person intent on power tampering,for many guns it also prevents the home mechanic from doing simple maintainance or correcting leaks. A possible exception is the HW100 where it seems possible to replace many seals without messing with the AT. From comments I have heard about the simplicity of servicing, I suspect Steyr are the same but as I have no experience of them I do not know this for fact. And, of course, I think AT only applies to pcp guns? Maybe the thought process is that no one would delve into the innards of a springer without 'knowledge' because of the danger of self harm ... but then potentially more self harm can come from stupidly messing with a pcp.
Just thoughts ....
Cheers, Phil

[lensman57]

Very interesting bit of history from Lensman, thank you. Regarding the introduction of the 12 law, is the information somewhere in the public domain now? Are the Cabinet papers released to the public? Or are they squirreled away somewhere for the next 'so many years'? I have no intention of looking for them myself but it might be a nice project for someone.
Regarding AT, I can see the motivation for this as I have in the past been sold rifles s/h that when tested have exceeded the limit ... hasty afternoon to bring them down ensued. But not all have been pcp (all were pre-AT) rifles; about half have been springers. Most pcps have clearly had 'bits replaced or tampered with' to gain the extra power (I have no intention here of saying what or how!) while springers have generally been fitted with super strong after market springs or extra preload on standard springs.
But will AT deter the dedicated person intent on upping a pcp? Somehow I doubt it. Most AT will no doubt deter the inquisitive but it is clear that most 'home engineers' can get round it with a little ingenuity. When thinking about AT I do find it sad though that as well as deterring the person intent on power tampering,for many guns it also prevents the home mechanic from doing simple maintainance or correcting leaks. A possible exception is the HW100 where it seems possible to replace many seals without messing with the AT. From comments I have heard about the simplicity of servicing, I suspect Steyr are the same but as I have no experience of them I do not know this for fact. And, of course, I think AT only applies to pcp guns? Maybe the thought process is that no one would delve into the innards of a springer without 'knowledge' because of the danger of self harm ... but then potentially more self harm can come from stupidly messing with a pcp.
Just thoughts ....
Cheers, Phil

There was a rather heated debate here last year and at the end we all agreed to disagree , even the hounorable TD got involved at some stage. I think one of the members posted a link to the documents. It maybe worth searching it out.

A.G

[lensman57]

Very interesting bit of history from Lensman, thank you. Regarding the introduction of the 12 law, is the information somewhere in the public domain now? Are the Cabinet papers released to the public? Or are they squirreled away somewhere for the next 'so many years'? I have no intention of looking for them myself but it might be a nice project for someone.
Regarding AT, I can see the motivation for this as I have in the past been sold rifles s/h that when tested have exceeded the limit ... hasty afternoon to bring them down ensued. But not all have been pcp (all were pre-AT) rifles; about half have been springers. Most pcps have clearly had 'bits replaced or tampered with' to gain the extra power (I have no intention here of saying what or how!) while springers have generally been fitted with super strong after market springs or extra preload on standard springs.
But will AT deter the dedicated person intent on upping a pcp? Somehow I doubt it. Most AT will no doubt deter the inquisitive but it is clear that most 'home engineers' can get round it with a little ingenuity. When thinking about AT I do find it sad though that as well as deterring the person intent on power tampering,for many guns it also prevents the home mechanic from doing simple maintainance or correcting leaks. A possible exception is the HW100 where it seems possible to replace many seals without messing with the AT. From comments I have heard about the simplicity of servicing, I suspect Steyr are the same but as I have no experience of them I do not know this for fact. And, of course, I think AT only applies to pcp guns? Maybe the thought process is that no one would delve into the innards of a springer without 'knowledge' because of the danger of self harm ... but then potentially more self harm can come from stupidly messing with a pcp.
Just thoughts ....
Cheers, Phil

Yes the worst Culprit is Daystate and then AA and BSA, TBH the last two are not that bad. Another down side of AT is that if you found your PCP creeping over then unless you took it to the RFD to sort it out or attempted to remove the AT yourself there would be no choice but to send it back to the manufacturer. Not much of a choice.
I guess they have put the AT on to declare that they have been responsible and done what could have been done beside setting the rifles too low.

A.G

[Terry D]

If anyone who genuinely cares about our sport wants to know what AT is about, please get in touch and we can have a proper conversation.

All the best.

[tacfoley]

Lensman wrote - 'I am sure that the gentry and the rich will still be able to keep their guns but the ordinary public .!'

Are you a communist? Or do you simply have a very low opinion of the British legal system?

The law applies to everybody equally, rich and poor.

tac

[Jonjon79]

Lensman wrote - 'I am sure that the gentry and the rich will still be able to keep their guns but the ordinary public .!'

Are you a communist? Or do you simply have a very low opinion of the British legal system?

The law applies to everybody equally, rich and poor.

tac

'All animals are equal ....'

[Rich]

We had a club member for a few years who was a serving police officer attached to a rapid response firearms unit. One day a member was using the club SKAN to check his rifle and found it was a shade warm. He was horrified to realise that the police officer - I'll call him A - was at the next bench, and must have witnessed it. A stood up and said to him, there's nothing in it for me to nick you or report you, you are doing exactly what I would wish you to do, you are behaving responsibly and checking your gear, and if you find it warm then you are doing something about it, here and now, (as fortunately it wasn't heavily AT'd). Basically, he said, you're making life easy for me so why should I want to stop you? He had a few things of his own to say about AT too.

[Turnup]

We had a club member for a few years who was a serving police officer attached to a rapid response firearms unit. One day a member was using the club SKAN to check his rifle and found it was a shade warm. He was horrified to realise that the police officer - I'll call him A - was at the next bench, and must have witnessed it. A stood up and said to him, there's nothing in it for me to nick you or report you, you are doing exactly what I would wish you to do, you are behaving responsibly and checking your gear, and if you find it warm then you are doing something about it, here and now, (as fortunately it wasn't heavily AT'd). Basically, he said, you're making life easy for me so why should I want to stop you? He had a few things of his own to say about AT too.

Which illustrates very nicely the spirit of the law being applied in a pragmatic way. Those on here who go in fear of being found with a 12.1 ft-lbs airgun are casting law enforcement as out to get them - they are not, and anyway they have far more pressing matters in which to invest their time and forensics budgets. For the conscientious shooter this is nothing to get excited about. For the scrote who is shooting cats, this is another charge that can be added to the charge sheet.

[Clanchief]

This thread could go on for years like a 99s thread.

Lensman wrote ; So when the cops get hold of your gun they don't test it with the pellet that you were using but it is tested with a variety of pellets that you may not even had heard of to see if the rifle exceeds 12 ft.lbs. If so then you are in possession of a fire arm and liable for prosecution.

If they have got a hold of your gun for any reason then you have been up to no good in the first place most likely, they don't turn up at a plinky plonky range and single folk out for testing.

[GoodWILLHunting]

This thread could go on for years like a 99s thread.

Lensman wrote ; So when the cops get hold of your gun they don't test it with the pellet that you were using but it is tested with a variety of pellets that you may not even had heard of to see if the rifle exceeds 12 ft.lbs. If so then you are in possession of a fire arm and liable for prosecution.

If they have got a hold of your gun for any reason then you have been up to no good in the first place most likely, they don't turn up at a plinky plonky range and single folk out for testing.

If I'd a cup I'd have sprayed the screen there Chief

[rogb]

This thread could go on for years like a 99s thread.

Lensman wrote ; So when the cops get hold of your gun they don't test it with the pellet that you were using but it is tested with a variety of pellets that you may not even had heard of to see if the rifle exceeds 12 ft.lbs. If so then you are in possession of a fire arm and liable for prosecution.

If they have got a hold of your gun for any reason then you have been up to no good in the first place most likely, they don't turn up at a plinky plonky range and single folk out for testing.

Exactly, though you will find many "knicker twisters" inhabiting the shooting fora, but very few among the hundreds I have met in (gasp) the REAL WORLD
I don't do much plinky plonky, but a fair bit of tin chicken flippy-floppy

[Rich]

OK, another club anecdote. This time the member's name is D. D had a Logun and he loaned it to his brother who we'll call B. B was "in a relationship" with a young lady and he lived at the young lady's house, along with her mother.

The mother didn't like B, and when B had a row with her daughter, the mother called the police and said that it was a domestic incident and B had a gun. Nice lady.

The firearms unit duly arrived and took away the Logun, which went to a lab for testing. The report said 12.4 ft.lb. D can't have his rifle back as he has no ticket.

We (the club) managed to convince the police that D was not the sort of chap to want to increase the power of his rifle and they agreed that it would not be destroyed but could go back to Logun via the dealer who sold it, to be turned down comfortably below 12 ft.lb.

And that is what happened. In the end D lost all faith in the Logun and the dealer took it back in part exchange once Logun had fixed it.

So, you don't have to be doing something naughty to get your gun seized. Ill-advised perhaps, to lend your gun to your brother, when he lives in somebody else's house.

[charlie350]

how many here have been checked. and what happend to bring about having your gun taken from you and checked? and why not get everybody that shoots and get the limit changed??? how hard would it be to start treating shooters with respect? why not just make it if you want to drive a car. take a class about gun safety then take 2 test 1 paper test and 1 marksmen. i am sure the teachers can weed out 95% of the nutcases and you can go get it renewed every 5 years. or is it they only want to trust you driving a car that can kill so as to get to work and pay the taxes they so covet?