12 foot pound Law Who's fault is it???

[Rob Edge]

^

You can't possibly shoot anything other than a snail with an air rifle old chap, just not Cricket.

Watched a chap on YouTube drop a pig with a .22 pellet from a Brocock Compatto the other day!



As for the FPE law.. what about something like South Africa here for non FAC? i.e. A max of .22 calibre allowed but no power limit and a max grain weight.

Saves any silly FPE limit but you'd be able to have up to 30FPE only self limited by the pellet speed (stability) keeping to circa 900fps. And .177 would be max around 18fpe

That way you couldn't have a .303 100fpe wolverine either (unless applying for FAC)

Excellent idea. Give every scrote the chance to legally own what is potentially a very dangerous weapon in the hands of an imbecile. When are people going to realise that we need to protect what we have now instead of making ridiculous statements.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Excellent idea. Give every scrote the chance to legally own what is potentially a very dangerous weapon in the hands of an imbecile. When are people going to realise that we need to protect what we have now instead of making ridiculous statements.

Couldn't agree more. And have a look at the continent, there are countries with lower power limits, others that ban any live quarry with air rifles, what we have now is perfectly sensible.

I can't for the life of me understand why people think their lives will change for the better if they have an 18 ft lbs rifle not an 11 ft lbs one. Just get on, stop grumbling, and shoot your airgun And if you do need a more powerful one just go FAC and get it.

The one thing I do agree on is if we are going to have power limits then a standardised test and removing the "capable" wording would be welcome.

[MrGrumpy]

Well controversial as it might be im absolutely fine with sub 12 air rifles
I have a few reasons first i owned many powder burners from .270 to .22 I find shooting sub 12 is excellent for honing shooting skills
secondly is the amount of complete idiots who own air rifles , unfortunately i know a few god forbid they got hold of anything more powerful !!
Safety is a massive issue to me i feel happier knowing my shot cant ricochet and travel hundreds of yards because it can happen
and ultimately i find them excellent hunting tools in the right conditions i can easily take rabbits and feathered quarry at 50 yards and the almost silent report of a PCP is invaluable to me in my hunting situations and i just dont like loud bangs anymore
I have a couple of guys from here i take out hunting and my mate Ian shotts FAC air we get similar size bags regardless of power Iv even been out with one of the AGW writers a few times on my shoot sub 12 does the job
Anyone who doubts the capability of sub 12 for hunting must know something i dont , im just shy of 250 rabbits taken this year and only lost 4 granted 4 too many but 2 where on a loose almost vertical scree and 2 lost in huge nettle patches !!!
on the whole sub 12 does me fine

[lensman57]

Couldn't agree more. And have a look at the continent, there are countries with lower power limits, others that ban any live quarry with air rifles, what we have now is perfectly sensible.

I can't for the life of me understand why people think their lives will change for the better if they have an 18 ft lbs rifle not an 11 ft lbs one. Just get on, stop grumbling, and shoot your airgun And if you do need a more powerful one just go FAC and get it.

The one thing I do agree on is if we are going to have power limits then a standardised test and removing the "capable" wording would be welcome.

I too would settle happily for your last sentence. But to be afraid of asking for more and what you have will be taken away reminds me of a scene in the movie Oliver Twist. The shinning example of caring Britain, the Victorian era.

A.G

[Rob Edge]

My point is simple. If you think that what you are doing requires more power then apply for an FAC. The idea that things would be easier with more power show little understanding of the increased obligation that comes with it. I have both FAC and sub 12 and I enjoy using both but when you need to work close in around buildings or are in wide open areas with few backstops a sub 12 is the safest option. A sub 12 as a hunting tool is worthwhile but fieldcraft is necessarry and lack of isn't a good enough reason to have more power.

[Roundshot]

I consider the 12 ft lbs limit a reasonable one and we are lucky to have it, not least in light of some European countries with lower limits and / or prohibited air rifle hunting.

I think it unlikely that English authorities will introduce the SNP license.

I understand why people choose a high power air rifle on Firearms Cert (safer alternative perhaps to .22LR), and believe such vetting a fair process for them.

Started out hunting with air rifles as most of us did, graduated to pump action 12 bore, then .22 rimmy, but realising most of my rabbits fell within air rifle ranges and fed up with loud bangs and bureaucracy, chucked in my ticket and gladly reverted to air rifles over 20yrs ago.

The unlicensed <12 ft lbs air rifle is a splendid tool to be cherished.

[jameswrx]

Excellent idea. Give every scrote the chance to legally own what is potentially a very dangerous weapon in the hands of an imbecile. When are people going to realise that we need to protect what we have now instead of making ridiculous statements.

Yep, so rediculous it works as law in their country..


Funny how people say 18fpe won't make much difference to hunting will also say "you don't want that in the hands of a scrote". Wouldn't make any difference to a scrote either, people just don't grasp the fact you can't blame an inanimate object for the actions of a fool. A scrote can use the cheapest restricted springer and produce 30fpe with no traceable mods anyway so once you understand that goes on, the law only acts as a way to worry genuine shooters who want to stay the right side of it.


My theory (IMO) is far more sound than a set power limit. What other law is there that could potentially see you inside for 5 years for a crime you didn't have anything to do with? In theory you can buy a sub 12 gun new, in good faith and it may already be an 'illegal firearm'

Let's take part of my example and say we were limited to owning .177 air rifles in the UK. You're automatically limited on power due to the size of the projectile (just like SA consider max power in .22 to be a safe limit and if people want to sling a .25 at 900fps they need FAC). There's no fuss with FPE limits and shops and buyers worrying if their gun is 12.5fpe). .177 springer would no doubt remain around 10-11 FPE for nice usage and PCP's would be running between 12-18FPE due to accuracy falling off over 940fps. Yes people will say you could make a huge pellet and bore out the TP but if someone wants to do that they would be regardless of the law. The majority of shooters would be interested in stability and accuracy. The people that just want max power will be doing what I mentioned above anyway.

There will always be people that exploit the law and you will never get rid of that. I just think the current law is silly and my example of buying a gun in good faith and having an illegal firearm illustrates that point.

It makes far more sense to roughly limit non FAC power by calibre restriction than it does by a set number.

I know it would never happen but you can't shout people down and call their ideas ridiculous when the current law to the word is far more ridiculous.

[Rob Edge]

Yep, so rediculous it works as law in their country..


Funny how people say 18fpe won't make much difference to hunting will also say "you don't want that in the hands of a scrote". Wouldn't make any difference to a scrote either, people just don't grasp the fact you can't blame an inanimate object for the actions of a fool. A scrote can use the cheapest restricted springer and produce 30fpe with no traceable mods anyway so once you understand that goes on, the law only acts as a way to worry genuine shooters who want to stay the right side of it.


My theory (IMO) is far more sound than a set power limit. What other law is there that could potentially see you inside for 5 years for a crime you didn't have anything to do with? In theory you can buy a sub 12 gun new, in good faith and it may already be an 'illegal firearm'

Let's take part of my example and say we were limited to owning .177 air rifles in the UK. You're automatically limited on power due to the size of the projectile (just like SA consider max power in .22 to be a safe limit and if people want to sling a .25 at 900fps they need FAC). There's no fuss with FPE limits and shops and buyers worrying if their gun is 12.5fpe). .177 springer would no doubt remain around 10-11 FPE for nice usage and PCP's would be running between 12-18FPE due to accuracy falling off over 940fps. Yes people will say you could make a huge pellet and bore out the TP but if someone wants to do that they would be regardless of the law. The majority of shooters would be interested in stability and accuracy. The people that just want max power will be doing what I mentioned above anyway.

There will always be people that exploit the law and you will never get rid of that. I just think the current law is silly and my example of buying a gun in good faith and having an illegal firearm illustrates that point.

It makes far more sense to roughly limit non FAC power by calibre restriction than it does by a set number.

I know it would never happen but you can't shout people down and call their ideas ridiculous when the current law to the word is far more ridiculous.

And your theory is flawed from the off. The law specifically allows upto 12ftlb for a rifle and 6fltb for a pistol. Now if you or anyone else want to start jibbering be prepared for the licensing and that means everyone gets vetted. Thats the best case scenario and the worst is a total ban on airguns off FAC. You really don't want to open this can of worms because it's been done to death and people should either accept what we have now or be prepared to kill the sport at the roots.

[Phil Russell]

I will stand correction if I am wrong but I believe that in Norway there is no power limit for .177 air rifles but you need a licence for a .22 irrespective of its power. ... I think there is a twist to this though in that the .22 is classed as 5.6mm but not 5.5mm. So a 5.5mm calibre barrel escapes the restrictions.
As I say, correct me if I am wrong but I think this is what I was told in a gun shop in norway maybe four years ago.
Cheers, Phil

[Rob Edge]

I will stand correction if I am wrong but I believe that in Norway there is no power limit for .177 air rifles but you need a licence for a .22 irrespective of its power. ... I think there is a twist to this though in that the .22 is classed as 5.6mm but not 5.5mm. So a 5.5mm calibre barrel escapes the restrictions.
As I say, correct me if I am wrong but I think this is what I was told in a gun shop in norway maybe four years ago.
Cheers, Phil

We don't live in Norway In mainland Europe .22 is 5.5mm but older UK guns would be 5.6mm.

[jameswrx]

And your theory is flawed from the off. The law specifically allows upto 12ftlb for a rifle and 6fltb for a pistol. Now if you or anyone else want to start jibbering be prepared for the licensing and that means everyone gets vetted. Thats the best case scenario and the worst is a total ban on airguns off FAC. You really don't want to open this can of worms because it's been done to death and people should either accept what we have now or be prepared to kill the sport at the roots.

You honestly think we're going to escape licensing in the future? ha, very much doubt it. I'm not about to campaign for a change in the law I was just trying to partake in a discussion about it. Just because your opinion is we shouldn't even talk about it, doesn't mean everyone else has to shy away. There's so much scare mongering about having our sport taken away.. The trouble is it will be taken away due to some twit shooting a load of cats or at a school playground or something. NOT by genuine enthusiasts discussing a power limit. No amount of hiding away and keeping your mouth shut about keeping our current law will stop that. In fact, you could argue the opposite.

And it's a discussion not 'jibbering' as you so eloquently put it!

[Rob Edge]

You honestly think we're going to escape licensing in the future? ha, very much doubt it. I'm not about to campaign for a change in the law I was just trying to partake in a discussion about it. Just because your opinion is we shouldn't even talk about it, doesn't mean everyone else has to shy away. There's so much scare mongering about having our sport taken away.. The trouble is it will be taken away due to some twit shooting a load of cats or at a school playground or something. NOT by genuine enthusiasts discussing a power limit. No amount of hiding away and keeping your mouth shut about keeping our current law will stop that. In fact, you could argue the opposite.

And it's a discussion not 'jibbering' as you so eloquently put it!

Airgunning has escaped legislation change since the VCR act put control in place to make all RFD sales face to face. This was a knee jerk reaction and could have killed the sport then. Most parties accept that change is imminent but the last thing we need is people drawing attention for the wrong reasons. Sub 12 is perfectly adequate for the vast majority of shooters and suits their needs. We don't need discussions spelling out what "a few" think would make "our" sport better. Sometimes it is better to leave sleeping dogs alone.

[lensman57]

I believe the best deffence is offence. If those who decide on such matters ever had the idea to fall in with countries such as Germany then knowing that the " community " who uses these guns are already unhappy with the present set of restrictions, might, just might desuade them from going any further.
Knowing that, we think that every aspect of the firearms law as far as airguns are concerned is Hunky Dory is not going to help our case in the long run.
To start is that catch all " capable of exceeding " phrase in the 12 ft.lbs limit. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the airguns knows that almost any airgun is capable of exceeeding the limit if " tampered with " or due to something as natural as seasonal fluctuations in temperature or the ballistic propertites of a new pellet.
We are fools to think that keeping our heads in the sand and pretending all is good is going to ensure the survival of our sport and hobby and shooting in general.

A.G

[Barryg]

To start is that catch all " capable of exceeding " phrase in the 12 ft.lbs limit. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the airguns knows that almost any airgun is capable of exceeeding the limit if " tampered with " or due to something as natural as seasonal fluctuations in temperature or the ballistic propertites of a new pellet.


A.G

A.G, don't you think that if capable meant anything other than capable how the airgun is setup and not after modification we would have had a lot more problems since 1969

[Steyr]

[QUOTE=jameswrx;7122762]^

You can't possibly shoot anything other than a snail with an air rifle old chap, just not Cricket.

Watched a chap on YouTube drop a pig with a .22 pellet from a Brocock Compatto the other day!



As for the FPE law.. what about something like South Africa here for non FAC? i.e. A max of .22 calibre allowed but no power limit and a max grain weight.

Saves any silly FPE limit but you'd be able to have up to 30FPE only self limited by the pellet speed (stability) keeping to circa 900fps. And .177 would be max around 18fpe

That way you couldn't have a .303 100fpe wolverine either (unless applying for FAC)[/QUOTE

Or have a benchmark pelletvwith a percentage of errorvrather than an absolute FPE