Gem/Jewel trigger housing removal query

[shovelchop81]

Hi! I've got an old Gem rifle that used to be the black and nickel version a very long time ago I believe. I've doing all kinds of strange fixes on it for a friend/customer but now it has a cocking problem as in it won't cock, the sear must be worn and need some possible filing and adjustment but I can't get it out of the body. I've ground down the flattened pin heads very carefully with a Dremell on both sides now but they just won't budge. I don't have a press so I've only been using a mallet and pin drift but I'm starting to wonder if there's something else going on here that I might have missed or not seen before. I remember you guys very kindly helped me out with information on this rifle before so I was hoping you could please help me again as I promised this guy I'd get it back to him this week, now I'm stuck or rather the pins seem to be. Cheers!

[Benelli B76]

Just a thought, are you sure it is a pin that had flattened heads or was it a long screw with an opposing locking screw with their grooves filed off. I had an old rifle that had this kind of assembly cross screw holding it together.

Baz

[shovelchop81]

Just a thought, are you sure it is a pin that had flattened heads or was it a long screw with an opposing locking screw with their grooves filed off. I had an old rifle that had this kind of assembly cross screw holding it together.

Baz

The ends of the pins were still dome shaped, worn down but not enough to have left no trace of a groove I'd have thought. Had this problem with an AR15 trigger guard before, I was informed it was spring loaded and that I must have not inserted the spring which was why it was stuck, I hacksawed the pin in half with a jeweller's saw (between the receiver and the guard) only to find out it was a flathead grub screw, not spring loaded at all and I'd mistakenly thought it was an Allen grub screw; c'est la vie. That's a good tip to know though, thank you!

Gem "pin heads" before:









And now after careful dremelling:







Can't I post images yet? Would make it a lot easier for you guys.

[DCL_dave]

They are not screws...definitely just drift pins...and you only need to remove one pin to remove the sear - the last pin nearest the butt-end of the cylinder.

These pins take a lot of force on them and are often are kinked in the middle section where it passes through the sear body because of this...best bet is to use a pin punch and steel hammer to shock it loose.

[Geoff555]

Hello, forgive me if this is being silly but have you tried the trigger adjusting screw and checked the small spring in the trigger/sear, and is there a possibility that the main, particularly if it is not an original, spring is coil bound .
The pins can take a fair swipe to move and a good quality pin punch and steel hammer is a must. As is firmly supporting the rifle so that it dosn't 'bounce'.
ATB.
Geoff.
Just had a look at the pictures and they look like the original pins. They have a 'mushroom' head that means the head has a larger diameter than the stem, which is why they need a firm clout.

[Benelli B76]

shovel, you are posting images in the correct manner via a hosting site, imgur is one of the easiest. You cannot attach images directly to your posts, only on the sales section.

Regards, Baz

[DCL_dave]

Hello, forgive me if this is being silly but have you tried the trigger adjusting screw and checked the small spring in the trigger/sear, and is there a possibility that the main, particularly if it is not an original, spring is coil bound .
The pins can take a fair swipe to move and a good quality pin punch and steel hammer is a must. As is firmly supporting the rifle so that it dosn't 'bounce'.
ATB.
Geoff.
Just had a look at the pictures and they look like the original pins. They have a 'mushroom' head that means the head has a larger diameter than the stem, which is why they need a firm clout.

Good point about trigger adjusting screw, Geoff. Also worth checking that the main cylinder pinch bolt isn't cranked up too tight either, which will have the effect of squeezing the end of slots that the cocking shoe runs in, thus limiting its travel at the end of the cocking stroke...

[shovelchop81]

They are not screws...definitely just drift pins...and you only need to remove one pin to remove the sear - the last pin nearest the butt-end of the cylinder.

These pins take a lot of force on them and are often are kinked in the middle section where it passes through the sear body because of this...best bet is to use a pin punch and steel hammer to shock it loose.

Thanks for the confirmation!

Hello, forgive me if this is being silly but have you tried the trigger adjusting screw and checked the small spring in the trigger/sear, and is there a possibility that the main, particularly if it is not an original, spring is coil bound .
The pins can take a fair swipe to move and a good quality pin punch and steel hammer is a must. As is firmly supporting the rifle so that it dosn't 'bounce'.
ATB.
Geoff.
Just had a look at the pictures and they look like the original pins. They have a 'mushroom' head that means the head has a larger diameter than the stem, which is why they need a firm clout.

Ah... Now that's very interesting!(The first part as I'm all good with the second part ). I thought this gun was too basic to have any trigger adjustment ability, there is a tiny hole in the trigger just above the blade section but no screw (unless it's behind the tiny hole that seems unlikely). The spring has plenty of compression and expansion left in it ie. it's not bound or knackered (could probably use a new one after all these years but more for maintenance). That adjuster screw may well be missing and causing all the problems which would save me a lot of work and stress (I build modern guns and am not comfortable working on antiques to be honest!). Do you happen to have any links to what the adjustment system is supposed to look like? I'm guessing a screw through the threaded (hopefully, got a large collection of taps and dies though) hole and adjusted correctly will do the trick unless the sear is now knackered due to incorrect adjustment causing wear by skipping over the locking point repeatedly.

shovel, you are posting images in the correct manner via a hosting site, imgur is one of the easiest. You cannot attach images directly to your posts, only on the sales section.

Regards, Baz

Cheers! Weird though...

Good point about trigger adjusting screw, Geoff. Also worth checking that the main cylinder pinch bolt isn't cranked up too tight either, which will have the effect of squeezing the end of slots that the cocking shoe runs in, thus limiting its travel at the end of the cocking stroke...

I agree with the adjustment screw, very possibly the problem as I don't have one! . The pinch bolt's threads are knackered, just something else that needs to be fixed! So no interference there!

[DCL_dave]

.... That adjuster screw may well be missing and causing all the problems which would save me a lot of work and stress (I build modern guns and am not comfortable working on antiques to be honest!). Do you happen to have any links to what the adjustment system is supposed to look like? I'm guessing a screw through the threaded (hopefully, got a large collection of taps and dies though) hole and adjusted correctly will do the trick unless the sear is now knackered due to incorrect adjustment causing wear by skipping over the locking point repeatedly.

Sorry to be the bearer...but if there is no adjusting screw through the front of the trigger...then you do still have a problem I'm afraid - the missing screw will not be acting on the trigger mech and so the trigger/sear will be at its heaviest feel/setting (so it can't be the fact it's missing that's affecting the sear!...that trigger screw screws in to lighten the trigger feel)


Edit: Also worth noting that not all Gem patterns even had a trigger adjusting screw...I've had a 2 or 3 of these "jewel" Gems...but I can't remember if they had a trigger screw fitted

[DCL_dave]

Here is a link to a thread on the Gem forum re. the EG No.13 aka Jewel Gem...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/66179...16722/view+all


...And yes, it should have adjuster screw in the front of the trigger as can be seen in the pics...but the fact it is missing on your gun means that you do still have a deeper problem with the sear/piston union....see if you can rotate the piston 180 degrees as it just may be the sear groove on the piston that is worn...doubtful though as the piston in a Gem is usually made from very hard steel! worth a go though

[shovelchop81]

Sorry to be the bearer...but if there is no adjusting screw through the front of the trigger...then you do still have a problem I'm afraid - the missing screw will not be acting on the trigger mech and so the trigger/sear will be at its heaviest feel/setting (so it can't be the fact it's missing that's affecting the sear!...that trigger screw screws in to lighten the trigger feel)


Edit: Also worth noting that not all Gem patterns even had a trigger adjusting screw...I've had a 2 or 3 of these "jewel" Gems...but I can't remember if they had a trigger screw fitted

Here is a link to a thread on the Gem forum re. the EG No.13 aka Jewel Gem...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/66179...16722/view+all


...And yes, it should have adjuster screw in the front of the trigger as can be seen in the pics...but the fact it is missing on your gun means that you do still have a deeper problem with the sear/piston union....see if you can rotate the piston 180 degrees as it just may be the sear groove on the piston that is worn...doubtful though as the piston in a Gem is usually made from very hard steel! worth a go though

Just found that out by installing one :-(. The cylinder lip where the sear catches is damaged in places but I have already rotated it to a good undamaged spot, I may have to drill these pins out!

[shovelchop81]

P.S. Thanks for the link!

[DCL_dave]

Just found that out by installing one :-(. The cylinder lip where the sear catches is damaged in places but I have already rotated it to a good undamaged spot, I may have to drill these pins out!

As a last ditch effort to remove the pins...fully support the work with blocks of wood so that it can not move...and use something short and very stout, like a small obo nail or a tack from a cable clip (knock the pointed tip off it though), hold it in a pair of needle nose mole grips and give it a good wack with a lump hammer.

[DCL_dave]

P.S. Thanks for the link!

No probs ...but thinking about it some more...does the trigger guard look bent at the rounded section? ...look at the action side on with the barrel closed, is there a noticeable difference in the angle of the flat section on the end of the cocking link/trigger guard in relation to where it meets the cocking shoe and cylinder?...if so it is bent at the rounded section and this will also have the effect of limiting the rear travel on the cocking stroke.

[shovelchop81]

As a last ditch effort to remove the pins...fully support the work with blocks of wood so that it can not move...and use something short and very stout, like a small obo nail or a tack from a cable clip (knock the pointed tip off it though), hold it in a pair of needle nose mole grips and give it a good wack with a lump hammer.

Already tried that, which is why I started the thread . Clamped in a huge vice and protected with a thin layer of rubber. It was completely apart as I had to make a custom cylinder seal for it, still not sure if that works yet as it won't cock due to the sear problem. The sear was a problem to begin with not caused by me.