the steyr debate continues

[jameswrx]

But nobody is shouting down, just two sides and all that. Just because the police seized these guns, doesn't mean we're all doomed or they're right.

Only reason I mention it is because I researched this when looking at H5's

The CPS say

Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of the Firearms Act, unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms.

Unless an air weapon falls within one of the above exceptions, it is not subject to section 1 Firearms Act 1968.

You're saying the 'specially dangerous' part is above 1fpe?

The CPS say in the "specially dangerous" definition..

An air rifle is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess in the case of a pistol of 6 ft lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 ft lbs: Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 rr. 2, 3 (Archbold 24-8a.)

That seems pretty clear to me that in terms of prosecution you're ok.

The wording of th law seems to be the issue here, there's definite ambiguity to how it's read and I can see both sides. But surely the CPS guidelines show even if you were taken to court under suspicion of sec 5 (someone had grassed you up for having a H5 auto say) the CPS guidelines would be addressed, your sub 12fpe H5 would be legal and you'd not be in jail?

[Andy001]

http://www.steyr-uk.co.uk

BREAKING NEWS!! Thursday 20th October 2016

Firearms Officer for North Yorkshire Police has this afternoon been to seize our five LP50 5 shot pistols as they are deeming them section 5 prohibited weapons.
Sorry to inform you this means we can no longer service or repair any LP5 or LP50.

[coburn]

But nobody is shouting down, just two sides and all that. Just because the police seized these guns, doesn't mean we're all doomed or they're right.

Only reason I mention it is because I researched this when looking at H5's

The CPS say




You're saying the 'specially dangerous' part is above 1fpe?

The CPS say in the "specially dangerous" definition..




That seems pretty clear to me that in terms of prosecution you're ok.

The wording of th law seems to be the issue here, there's definite ambiguity to how it's read and I can see both sides. But surely the CPS guidelines show even if you were taken to court under suspicion of sec 5 (someone had grassed you up for having a H5 auto say) the CPS guidelines would be addressed, your sub 12fpe H5 would be legal and you'd not be in jail?

Exactly, and hardly screaming from the sidelines in reply, well said.

[Inspector 71]

Andy001 isn't Reuter's material with that "scoop"

If the spotlight is on the mechanism rather than the type of gun, perhaps the days of clip fed Rugers, Anschutz etc. in 22lr are numbered?

[Turnup]

Don't understand the debate really.

HO Guidance Para 1.3.

"Low powered air weapons are not licensed in England and Wales unless they are of a type declared specially dangerous by the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 but there are restrictions on their sale. An air weapon is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile with kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6 foot lbs or, in the case of other air weapons,12 foot lbs."

So no licence is required for sub 6/12 airguns [regardless of the action type].

While the S5 definitions of prohibited firearms might be interpreted to include semi airguns, were this so then possession would require a S5 licence, and the document has earlier and unambiguously stated that licences for such airguns are not required.

The debate seems to hinge around reading one part of legislation in isolation from the rest of the relevant material.

Also this nonsense about rifled vs smooth seems to be pure invention. The only area where smooth/rifled this comes into play is an exemption which allows smooth bore muzzle loaders to be held on S2 even if firing a single ball or bullet.

Taking a simple example from motoring law, it is illegal to travel in the wrong direction in a one-way street. Elsewhere we are required to obey the instruction of a police officer directing traffic [who might in fact be directing us against a one way system because of a road closure for e.g.]

[jameswrx]

The weird thing for me in all this is there are people within our sport/hobby that are trying to press the self destruct button! Even if they think it's a bad idea, what next? When they've hassled the Home Office enougg and the CPS guidelines change the next rung down on the ladder comes into the light..

If it was truly the case that these latest seizures were sec5 then we should see the MANDATORY prison sentences. But what will happen (like all the cases I read) is the CPS guidelines will show the above I quoted and nothing will come of it.

[Dibble]

So if they are section 5 everyone including the importers (who had some in their Arsenal) are facing jail.
The police and CPS are facing massive costs to prosecute as presumably the importers have a few bob and firearms laws have been cobbled together over the years by politicians who don't know their AR15 from their elbow.

Maybe we should have a good old British compromise where the guns are confiscated as sec5 and the importers pay compensation.....oh that's what seems to be happening.

Our firearms laws are a mess and we have just missed the chance for a radical rewrite but I cannot see why people to push them to the limit then complain when they find they are over the limit

[jameswrx]

Yep, in theory the case in point means people should be doing mandatory 5 years. The reality and CPS guidelines say different. It's like some people have decided to rewrite the law.

It's like the maddest self destruct from within the sport. Makes no sense.

Even if the people championing the demise of SA sub 12 or 6 air have good intentions (which really, what business is it of people like this to speak for us masses?). Their intentions are as stupid as the people that will actually break the law with some old POS gun.

Why would any scally buy a H5 SA at £1700 to go and shoot cats with or other people? You could go and buy a real firearm off the street for a tenth of the price lol.

It's a classic case of the easy target and the good man being persecuted.

[Rich]

Five mandatory 5-year sentences at least. Let's hope they are applied concurrently and not consecutively. Even the terrorists don't get a 25 year stretch.

I'm sure I've mentioned it before, a chum of mine had an email from his firearms officer saying a sub 12 airgun is a sub 12 airgun regardless of single shot or magazine or semi auto and all sub 12 airguns are exempt so if you want one, go and buy it.

[tinbum]

Yep, in theory the case in point means people should be doing mandatory 5 years. The reality and CPS guidelines say different. It's like some people have decided to rewrite the law.

It's like the maddest self destruct from within the sport. Makes no sense.

Even if the people championing the demise of SA sub 12 or 6 air have good intentions (which really, what business is it of people like this to speak for us masses?). Their intentions are as stupid as the people that will actually break the law with some old POS gun.

Why would any scally buy a H5 SA at £1700 to go and shoot cats with or other people? You could go and buy a real firearm off the street for a tenth of the price lol.

It's a classic case of the easy target and the good man being persecuted.

I think you've misunderstood something along the line. No one is championing their demise. Some people (cps included) are trying to rewrite the law as it clearly says any self loading rifled gun other than a .22 rimfire is section five.
The Intention of the Home Office was alledgedly never to include air guns and should have read "up to .22 rimfire", but the NYPD have now decided to enforce an actual law by the letter. Only a court case can put an end to it.

[RobF]

Five mandatory 5-year sentences at least. Let's hope they are applied concurrently and not consecutively. Even the terrorists don't get a 25 year stretch.

I'm sure I've mentioned it before, a chum of mine had an email from his firearms officer saying a sub 12 airgun is a sub 12 airgun regardless of single shot or magazine or semi auto and all sub 12 airguns are exempt so if you want one, go and buy it.

Rich, get the FEO to put it on headed paper then publish it. My FEO said Brococks could be transferred across licenses. We know they can't.

Brockocks are also sub 6ft-lb which blows a gaping hole in the idea that the muzzle energy defines if they require a license or the mechanism is irrelevant.

[tigercat]

Rich, get the FEO to put it on headed paper then publish it. My FEO said Brococks could be transferred across licenses. We know they can't.

Brockocks are also sub 6ft-lb which blows a gaping hole in the idea that the muzzle energy defines if they require a license or the mechanism is irrelevant.

Do We think this is really a reality

[jameswrx]

The amendment to the firearms act in 1988 that now says about "any firearm" is also under the heading "specially dangerous weapons"

A sub 12 air rifle is NOT a specially dangerous" weapon according to the rest of the original firearms act. If it was that would mean all these smooth bore revolver airguns we can buy would also be sec 5 as the wording in the amendment in 1988 says "any smooth bore or revolver" is prohibited BUT again that is under the "specially dangerous weapon" title of which we know is referenced in the act as NOT including sub 6 air pistols!

Brococks are specifically referred to by CPS in guidelines so I assume there was some test case back in the day?.

My point kind of was the law is such that it's open to interpretation (as we can see by these debates) but when it comes to prosecution the chances of being sent down for owning a H5 auto are slim to none.

It's also possible to get life in prison for selling a sec 5. I'd like to know where all the people are that have sold H5 autos and lp50's, are they residing for life at her majesty's pleasure?

[Grahamcs]

Why the obsession with semi autos?

I don't get it.

Waltism IMO.

We have a scar .22 rimfire at the club and it's not very good.

Walt gun.

Maybe it's just me but I prefer the experience of individually loading a pellet or round and aiming properly.

It's much more rewarding and involving.

I understand as a pest control tool but then surely a rimfire and fac does the job.

Mind you I feel like getting into obsolete and black powder so maybe I'm just as weird.

Also cavalry sabres are license free ha ha!

Anyway if these are section 5 then I will be pleasantly surprised.

It's not like it's a 7.62 SLR is it?

I also thought it was more than 5 years?

[1066]

Why the obsession with semi autos?

I don't get it.

Waltism IMO.

We have a scar .22 rimfire at the club and it's not very good.

Walt gun.

Maybe it's just me but I prefer the experience of individually loading a pellet or round and aiming properly.

It's much more rewarding and involving.

I understand as a pest control tool but then surely a rimfire and fac does the job.

Mind you I feel like getting into obsolete and black powder so maybe I'm just as weird.

Also cavalry sabres are license free ha ha!

Anyway if these are section 5 then I will be pleasantly surprised.

It's not like it's a 7.62 SLR is it?

I also thought it was more than 5 years?

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This, of course, has been the problem with the shooting sport in this country for as long as I can remember.

Years ago, the Bisley shooters frowned on anyone who wanted a semi-auto rifle or pump action shotgun - It's not our cup of tea old chap, won't effect us if they ban them. The same happened with centrefire pistols, then rimfire - The Brocock scandal, won't effect me, don't know why anyone would want one in the first place.

With a million certificate/licence holders and many thousands of unlicensed airgun shooters in this country, if every one paid one pound a year into a fighting fund these ridiculous ideas could be properly challenged in court.

This death by a thousand cuts has been taking it's toll for years - All we do is keep our heads down and hope it's not us next.