Double Spring Clip Webley Mk1 Air Pistol.

[Davidm61]

The forward projections on the breech block appear to have snapped or been removed. This pistol shows a damaged breech from above.

Many thanks, appreciated. Presumably this is the case then for the one shown in Bruces book, or was there a variant without the projections? Sorry for the questions, but I've never had the opportunity to handle on of these double clip versions, so having to rely on what I can find on the forums/internet/books.

Thanks.

[Troubledshooter]

The forward projections on the breech block appear to have snapped or been removed. This pistol shows a damaged breech from above.

This is a not uncommon problem with both the Wood Gripped Mk.I and the Wood Gripped Junior.
My own example of a boxed Wood Gripped Junior, now sold, had a broken corner on the top right side of the breech block, the side view of which can be seen in the 'Webley Junior' section on my signature site, particularly if the photograph is enlarged.

[Garvin]

Presumably this is the case then for the one shown in Bruces book, or was there a variant without the projections?

Jimmie Dee, above, says there was a variant of the spring clip Mk1 without projections. I don't know myself, but have asked an expert if he's heard of such a variant.

[thenightstalker]

After reading through this thread about the spring clip Webley, I had a dig through my collection and found that my early mk1 (non Spring clip) is serial number 1535, just 5 later than the one at auction. The two of them may have met each other at the factory!

Nick.

[Troubledshooter]

Unfortunately, my Webley contact was not around at the time the Mk.I WG was manufactured, so I can't ask him, but as far as I am aware, and I'm no expert, there never was a version produced without the extended sides to the breech block, even though there were many variations of the pistol throughout it's production run.
The missing corners on both the Mk.I and early Junior models came about through careless use by the owners, but were strengthened in the later models that used a similar style of breech block, thus alleviating the problem.
It is quite possible that some owners with the appropriate engineering skills may have carefully remodelled their Mk.I breech blocks, after breaking off one corner, so the pistol could possibly appear as if it left the factory in such a condition, but I have not seen such a specimen.

[JimmieDee]

Unfortunately, my Webley contact was not around at the time the Mk.I WG was manufactured, so I can't ask him, but as far as I am aware, and I'm no expert, there never was a version produced without the extended sides to the breech block, even though there were many variations of the pistol throughout it's production run.
The missing corners on both the Mk.I and early Junior models came about through careless use by the owners, but were strengthened in the later models that used a similar style of breech block, thus alleviating the problem.
It is quite possible that some owners with the appropriate engineering skills may have carefully remodelled their Mk.I breech blocks, after breaking off one corner, so the pistol could possibly appear as if it left the factory in such a condition, but I have not seen such a specimen.

When I get a chance, I will provide a photograph of my two spring clips models. The first with both protrusions "broken off" and the second without protrusions and no sign of damage that indicates it was made without the protrusions.

[slug-gun]

I have a late double spring clip, No.675 I think, in its box and hardly used, which does not have the projections, and looks for all the world like it never did have them.

SO: Either both projections were broken off on a pistol which has seen very little use, and then expertly repaired and blued over by its owner to match the existing action?

OR: Webley decided at some point, probably fairly late on in the making of the double spring clips, that the projections had a limited function and removed them during manufacture?

OR: The pistol was sent back to the factory by the owner because the projections were bending or whatever, and Webley 'fettled' the pistol at that point in time?

I am open to suggestions?

[Troubledshooter]

All three are interesting options, Chris, but have you seen other pistols in similar configuration ?

[slug-gun]

All three are interesting options, Chris, but have you seen other pistols in similar configuration ?

I have but the pistols had been well used, and therefore it was impossible to tell whether they might have been modified or not, as the original finish had been lost, presence of corrosion, etc.

[JimmieDee]

As promised, I have put together a few words and pictures to show illustrate my opinion of the double spring clip Webley that has come up for auction at Holts. You can find it here...

A Facebook account is not necessary to read the article but it is needed if you wish to leave a comment.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jimmi...68911586540047

[JimmieDee]

I have a late double spring clip, No.675 I think, in its box and hardly used, which does not have the projections, and looks for all the world like it never did have them.

SO: Either both projections were broken off on a pistol which has seen very little use, and then expertly repaired and blued over by its owner to match the existing action?

OR: Webley decided at some point, probably fairly late on in the making of the double spring clips, that the projections had a limited function and removed them during manufacture?

OR: The pistol was sent back to the factory by the owner because the projections were bending or whatever, and Webley 'fettled' the pistol at that point in time?

I am open to suggestions?

The later variants did not have the projections. This is clear from yours and mine as the metal work is near perfect and not fractured where the lugs have on earlier variants been removed either during manufacture or subsequently through use.

[Troubledshooter]

Double Spring Clips 219 and 374 both have their complete breech sides.

[Garvin]

The later variants did not have the projections. This is clear from yours and mine as the metal work is near perfect and not fractured where the lugs have on earlier variants been removed either during manufacture or subsequently through use.

With respect, Jimmie, although it's looking that way, we can't know for sure on the basis on two examples in the absence of official proof.

To quote slug-gun, who is a very experienced collector and author of Webley Air Rifles 1925-2005, there are three scenarios:

1. Either both projections were broken off on a pistol which has seen very little use, and then expertly repaired and blued over by its owner to match the existing action?

2. Webley decided at some point, probably fairly late on in the making of the double spring clips, that the projections had a limited function and removed them during manufacture?

3. The pistol was sent back to the factory by the owner because the projections were bending or whatever, and Webley 'fettled' the pistol at that point in time?

I have asked one expert for an opinion, who said he hasn't come across any definitive literature report saying some pistols had the forward lugs absent. I've yet to hear from another expert I asked (who has examined the Holts pistol in person) but he's very busy and I'm sure he'll respond when he has time.

[JimmieDee]

With respect, Jimmie, although it's looking that way, we can't know for sure on the basis on two examples in the absence of official proof.

To quote slug-gun, who is a very experienced collector and author of Webley Air Rifles 1925-2005, there are three scenarios:

1. Either both projections were broken off on a pistol which has seen very little use, and then expertly repaired and blued over by its owner to match the existing action?

2. Webley decided at some point, probably fairly late on in the making of the double spring clips, that the projections had a limited function and removed them during manufacture?

3. The pistol was sent back to the factory by the owner because the projections were bending or whatever, and Webley 'fettled' the pistol at that point in time?

I have asked one expert for an opinion, who said he hasn't come across any definitive literature report saying some pistols had the forward lugs absent. I've yet to hear from another expert I asked (who has examined the Holts pistol in person) but he's very busy and I'm sure he'll respond when he has time.

Of course. I'm usually more careful with my words as you know. Maybe the word "probably" would be more appropriate. But as you say, without any official proof, we only have physical evidence to base our assumptions on.

But let's take each of the three potential explanations and explore them....

The first one I think I read sarcasm coming through. We know of at least two such pistols. It's possible that both may have been repaired by the owner. But I think this very unlikely. I also measured the breech blocks of mine this morning and could not tell any difference in length from the rear to the front. I would have expected some difference if it had been re-machined to remove any signs damage. I'll take another indepth look this evening. But let's be perfectly clear. Mine, and it sounds like the other, show absolutely no signs of repair or damage in this area.

The third case is very similar to the first. Do we think Webley would have re-machined and reblued pistols that had been returned to the factory? Hmm. I wouldn't have thought so. That's a lot of work perhaps. It may have been cheaper to send out a replacement and repackage the original one with the lugs removed for resale. Who knows.

For me, option two sounds the most plausible and pondering over these questions is one of the most interesting parts of collecting in my opinion.

Maybe in time other double spring clips will be revealed and may so the same trend, or not. We do know for certain that Webley kept improving their designs. We also know that some, probably the later variants of the double spring clip, did indeed have the compression tube cap locking screw as shown in Gordon's book if you look carefully, but also on my own later pistol. I wonder if the other later pistol mentioned above also has the locking screw?

All the best,
Jimmie Dee

[pnird]

My own double-clip Webley Mark 1, no. 470, has one of the protrusions missing. It has clearly been broken off (the granular surface of the break is quite visible), while the other protrusion remains intact. This piece of metal is quite thin (about 1/20 of an inch), and it is easy to understand how it might be damaged by mishandling. I think that if this kind of thing happened in the factory, it would be reasonable and sensible to clean the surface off and pass the piece for sale, since the absence of the protrusions could make no difference to the functionality of the pistol

John