Newbie to casting - mystery alloy!

[tacfoley]

Thanks Tac.
I've already done a bit for the kentucky and got on OK, though it didn't like the Lee REALs I tried - but I suspect that was a twist rate issue as opposed to the bullets.

I was actually after a .45-70 but the 120 came up - not done a deal yet but it too is an 1885 high wall - much more elegant than the Sharps methinks!

Depending on the maker, your 'Kentucky'-style rifle will have a twist rate between 1/48 and 1/72 - the latter is 'okay' for a REAL, just, the other is useless. Good luck loading the .45-120 - at least you can be sure of getting the full 70gr of BP in it.

Shooting the 500gr bullet with the full load - most cases, including Bertram, will hold around 105gr of 3Fg, will be, uh, interesting, to say the least. Using a drop tube, magnum primers, and a thin card wad, you just might get that 120gr of 3Fg under a 350gr bullet.

Having read somewhere about recoil factors, seems that the .45-120 load with a 500gr bullet develops around 68 ft lbs energy - backwards - compared with the .30-06 standard load of between 18 and 22 ft lbs. Be sure to let us know how you get on when they take the plaster off, eh?

Whinemeal - THIS is from pal Fred over in Oregoon -

I've got a High Wall in 45-120 Sharps. It's really a Browning B-78 that was rebarrelled, but it shoots great. It's not for the weak of heart, either.

I cast my own bullets, using an RCBS 405 grain gas check mold, which throws a bullet weighing 420 grains. It's a really nice flatpoint design and I'm pushing it pretty hard with 65 grains of IMR 4895 and 10 grains of Winchester Super Grex for a filler. I also use Winchester Magnum large rifle primers, due to the length of the case and the amount of powder I'm setting off.

I used to load the Hornady 300 grain jacketed hollowpoint over 80 grains of IMR 4895 and 12 grains of Super Grex. This load was a screamer, but I decided to just settle for one load for this gun and the cast bullet was what I chose.

There are loads for the 45-120 listed on the Hodgdon website under Cowboy Loads and Accurate Arms has loads for it with their powders.

If you're just wanting to shoot heavy bullets relatively fast with smokeless powders, then the 45-90 is a lot better for that purpose. The 3 1/4" long case of the 45-120 doesn't lend itself well to smokeless powders, since there is so much case volume.

This round gets a lot of attention when you set it off, but the brass is expensive at about $4.75 each. If you do decide to get the 45-120, try to stay away from the Bertram brass, made in Australia. His quality control isn't the greatest and the brass doesn't last as long as it should.

Hope this helps.

Fred

As you can see, loading is complex and painful to exploit - it is after all, a black powder load designed to drop a one-ton beast right there.

tac

[Jamie]

I have already promised first shot to a friend of mine, cos I'm nice like that!

I wanted a 70 really but the 120 came up in the right rifle at the right money. I've always liked the more unusual variants of a cartridge so it appeals.

I won't be going to any great lengths to get 120 grains in!

[Treebone]

Jamie,
What rifle do you have in 45-120?
Whatever way you choose to load it you will know about it when you touch one off, my 45-100 Shiloh weighs 15lbs and even with a reduced load gives my shoulder a severe pounding, get yourself a Past recoil shield if you want to enjoy your shooting.

TB.

[Jamie]

I don't yet, but I'm getting a Uberti Winchester 1885 once the variation comes back.

Probably a deal lighter than yours!

[Treebone]

I don't yet, but I'm getting a Uberti Winchester 1885 once the variation comes back.

Probably a deal lighter than yours!

I like the Hi-Wall design great choice, Uberti quality is excellent, may i ask what your intended use is?
My aim is to ring steel at 500-600yds in the form of a 15" diameter gong, i have been working on a load for some months now and i am nearly there, initial 100yd 5 shot groups were around 6"- 8" but after finding out what bullet hardness my barrel likes and selecting a good bullet mould i am now down to 2" but i am getting unexplained flyers, some load fine tuning will hopefully sort it, once i can get five shots into 2" i will be ready to attempt the gong

TB.

[Jamie]

Target at the club (for which I'll have to throttle it back a fair bit) , gongs, and, if plod will play the game, deer.

I go up to a friend's ground once a month or so for a social zeroing day and he has gongs to 700, so room to stretch it's legs there as long as I get it conditioned for land rather than ranges only.

[tacfoley]

I don't yet, but I'm getting a Uberti Winchester 1885 once the variation comes back.

Probably a deal lighter than yours!

I don't know if you've read what I wrote, but this is from a very experienced shooter over in BC - notwithstanding my advice that you get the loading manual, or, even better, the little booklet from Norman Clark that is a one-calibre manual.

Quote - how strong is his action ? does it compare to a ruger #1 ? [Edit, yes it does]

the 45-120 i have is on a ruger #1 .
my go to load is to fill the case up to the rim with imr 4831 , tap the side a few times to settle the powder , then fill it to the top , then card the top of the case mouth to remove the excess powder .
i then seat either a 400 grain barnes x bullet or a 350 grain hornady round nose . i use a very light crimp to hold things in place .
i use a remington mag rifle primer .

it is around 100 grains of powder

i'm using heavy walled brass ( made by ballard rifle in the late 90's ) . other brands of brass may use a thinner wall and hold more powder .
this is a very safe loading for my rifle , absolutely no signs of pressure .

i've also used other faster burning powders and found this long skinny case is very temperamental .

( the following load info is off the top of my head , take with a grain of salt )

for example 85 grains of imr 4064 absolutely no pressure signs and some unburnt powder and a somewhat gentle report from the rifle .
86 grains of powder , primers flattened very hard , loose primer pockets and intense recoil / report , no unburnt powder .
it is like the pressure curve of the burning powder reaches a " sweet spot" where it is able to burn ALL the powder creating high pressure .

i found this with 3 or 4 other powders too .

hope this helps .

My thanks to burnt_servo on canadiangunnutz.com

tac

[Treebone]

Target at the club (for which I'll have to throttle it back a fair bit) , gongs, and, if plod will play the game, deer.

I go up to a friend's ground once a month or so for a social zeroing day and he has gongs to 700, so room to stretch it's legs there as long as I get it conditioned for land rather than ranges only.

Go for it Jamie, i have my 45-100 conditioned for deer and AOLQ, there is no reason why they can refuse if you you permission to shoot on land with deer on it.

TB.

[Jamie]

Thanks for that Tac. Surprising how fast the pressure climbs. I'll almost certainly be burning black so should be ok.

Treebone, I'm certainly going to ask for quarry but glos are notorious for being awkward for the sake of it and I already have 3 deer rifles

[tacfoley]

I've got some loads here for nitro, but my recommendation, if you insist on shooting BP loads, is that you join the BPCRSAGB - black powder cartridge rifle shooting association of GB.

Long-range shooting of animals depends on some serious knowledge of the range at which they are standing there waiting for you to hit them, also bearing mind the time it takes to get to them from you. IMO, tang sights are not a good plan for long range animal shooting, as I'm sure you have already figured out. That 600 yard steel ram ain't going galloping across the landscape any time soon.

Personally, I'll be amazed if you get your BP rifle conditioned for game - surprisingly, not even the mighty .45-70 makes the m/e and m/v figures for Scotland, although the buffalo never knew that.

tac

[Jamie]

I won't be shooting animals at long range with it, I don't do that with scoped 'modern' (well, 8mm mauser!) rifles!

I won't be applying for it as a black powder rifle, just a .45-120 rifle and chuckhawks.com reckons black is good for about 2500ftlb so eminently deer legal in England.

I think they may play silly buggers over having 4 deer rifles though. Doing the form tonight so we shall see!

[Treebone]

I won't be shooting animals at long range with it, I don't do that with scoped 'modern' (well, 8mm mauser!) rifles!

I won't be applying for it as a black powder rifle, just a .45-120 rifle and chuckhawks.com reckons black is good for about 2500ftlb so eminently deer legal in England.

I think they may play silly buggers over having 4 deer rifles though. Doing the form tonight so we shall see!

You cant apply for it as a black powder rifle jamie because its a cartridge rifle, the choice of what you put into the cartridge has no bearing, however if you want to use BP you will have to apply to different authorities for licenses to hold and transport BP as it is classed as a explosive not a propellant
Smokeless loads are not favourable in BPCR rifles because of the huge case capacity and increased possibility high pressures that could be reached unknowingly, i use Pyrodex RS because i dont want to go through the rigmarole of obtaining the various licences for BP, contrary to a lot of what is said about Pyrodex it is an excellent propellant

TB.

[Jamie]

Already got a BP ticket for the flintlocks so no issue there. I'll probably stick to black to be honest, may have a play with trail boss for paper punching as it's cleaner, and more likely to leave my arm attached!

[tacfoley]

I've got load data for Pyrodex Ctg if that's the way you want to go, although now you imply that you have data for Trailboss loads. My advice is therefore redundant.

Think you'll find that IF you ask for it a .45-120 cal rifle, the PTB will very quickly pick up that it is NOT a nitro firearm that you are asking for. Unhelpful though they might be on occasion, they are not complete dwongs.

However, that's a problem you might have to deal with in justifying it as a game shooter. Your pal with the .45-70 is fine simply because .45-70 is also a nitro cartridge. Your choice of calibre never was.

tac

[Jamie]

Trailboss loads are worked out as a percentage of case volume so no data needed really. I've used it in 6br and 7x57 for subs and quite like it. A 7mm 165grain sub is most entertaining!

We shall see what plod have to say, if I can only shoot targets then so be it!

Thanks for the help Tac