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Thread: How accurate is accurate?

  1. #1
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    How accurate is accurate?

    I'm in the market for a good target .22LR. I'm looking at 1913's, KK 500 and similar. I'd love to buy new but I'm not sure I can justify the expense.

    If I'm going down the used route I'd like to know how accurate is accurate. In fact, even if I buy new I'd like to know.

    If I have a rifle batch tested, say at Eley test range, what would be a good result? How can I judge if the rifle really is 'accurate'?

  2. #2
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    Sundance,

    Accurate can mean different things to different people. To an Olympic team member, a 10.5 average prone would be essential, but a C class shooter might be happy with the odd 99 at 25 yards. What ambitions do you have? To make the county indoor team, almost any rifle will be accurate enough, assuming good condition and a moderate round count, but to make the national squad you will want something a bit special.

    New rifles will come with a test target, which for German rifles will have been shot at 50m, from a vice without the stock. Partly the target is there to show the buyer a nice round group, but also it's the factory's proof the rifle met their minimum standard. Anschutz have traditionally held back rifles that do well in the initial test, and if the barrel shoots well under further testing, it's sold for a small premium as "selected". From all accounts the new KK500 and 54.30 rifles are shooting very well.

    If you are buying used, the first indicator is the condition: a stock like an old cricket bat, and a rusty barrel aren't promising. Assuming the outside looks OK, is there any sign of erosion in the throat, are the bedding bolt heads chewed up? I would measure the headspace if you have access to gauges. If you are buying privately ask the seller what the round count is, and for recently shot targets (the factory test is irrelevant unless the rifle is nearly new). Check their scores if they're local, and you both shoot in the same leagues. How often the barrel was cleaned is relevant; after shooting, with a single-piece rod, a breech guide, and the butt/cheek piece removed is ideal. Test shooting an unfamiliar gun is unlikely to show it's full potential unless a mechanical test rig is available.

    In terms of grouping, anything under 21.6mm will shoot a 10 at 50m if properly centred. Obviously the smaller than this you can get, the more room for personal error you have. Groups of under 12mm (10 shots edge to edge) are very good, if not exceptionally good. Sub 14mm is a more realistic "good" benchmark. The record at Eley's Birmingham range is 14mm over 40 shots, with an average decimal score of nearly 10.7. This would be with Tenex. (Or Midas,or R50 if you prefer Lapua or RWS); second grade brands (Match, Centre-X, and Special Match) are made on the same machinery, and can shoot as well as premium brands in some barrels, but your chances of finding that killer batch are a little smaller. Shoot Edge or equivalent, and your groups may be a few MM bigger.
    Last edited by tim s; 18-12-2016 at 09:03 PM.

  3. #3
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    Thank you.

    That's great information Tim, many thanks.

  4. #4
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    Edge to edge?

    I was wondering Tim if that's edge to edge on paper or electronic scorer? I think I've read somewhere that paper gives a better score due to the paper expanding after the round passes through.

  5. #5
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    Sundance,

    Eley currently use electronic targetry for all their test ranges. I believe the Lapua/ RWS testing at the LRC also use electronics. However Eley used paper for many years, as did Lapua and RWS at Bisley. Paper will not give the same degree of accuracy as electronics simply because of having to measure with a ruler. But I don't think it really matters, so long as you can compare whatever batches you have on the day. You don't use the same test rig in Brum as Bisley, so the rsults sren't directly comparable anyway.

    The decimal score that Eley provides adds another factor, allowing you to compare shot density. It's not unlike the mean average-to-centre method used by some military arsenals. I know of shooters who look for round groups where successive shots overlap to acheive a similar end.

  6. #6
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    Thanks again Tim

    I guess it was a bit of a daft question. It doesn't seem like it could make much difference.

    Thanks Tim for all your help.

  7. #7
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    RobinC is offline Awesome Shooting Coach and Author.
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    I support all the above, but its the shooter who is the expert not the rifle, the rifle just has to be capable of achieving what the expert requires and all new rifles do, be they Bleiker, Anschutz 54/30 or the Walther KK500.

    Much of the group testing is also an irrelavence, but it gives most shooter the chance to see groups tighter than they do in their normal shooting.
    .22lr is designed as as a cheap sporting ammunition, its manufacturing process is beset with errors waiting to happen, the case is too small to accurately size, the primer is crudely added, the powder is difficult to guarantee an accurate load again due to case size and mass production, the bullet is simple and crude cast lead, and is machin mass produced fitted for centrality and depth, its a wonder they do shoot as accurately as they do and is a credit to the care that the top manufacturers take to achieve the degree of precision that they do.

    We also shoot 300 mt and use both factory and handloaded 6 mmBR, now that is accurate! But the case is sized to the 'nth, the primer is a precision part, the powder is individualy weighed (and we weigh to 0.02 gns), the bullet heads are precision parts, and again we check weigh them (they cost double a .22rf complete cartridge), the bullet heads are fitted in a micrometer set individual die press for depthe and centrality, and the lot is individually checked, and they do shoot incredible groups, but they cost £2.00 each! And its still a 60 shot match!

    Several top world level shooters that we know haave said that group testing with less than 100 shot groups is a waste of time, one says 250. One, a five times Olympian told me all it proves is that the shots in the group were OK, it says nothing about the ones to come, he stopped other than basic testing a long time ago, but tells every one he does just to wind them up!

    The KK500 is a superb rifle, my wife has one, but hers is in a Keppeler stock, nothing wrong with the standard stock, just she wanted it the same as her 300 mt rifle, she shoots RWS R50 ammo, and at bus pass plus age regularly shoots over 590, but then also did with her previous KK300.

    If you want to shoot tighter, get a good coach!

    Good Shooting, have fun and a merry Xmas
    Robin
    Walther KK500 Alutec expert special - Barnard .223 "wilde" in a Walther KK500 Alutec stock, mmm...tasty!! - Keppeler 6 mmBR with Walther grip and wood! I may be a Walther-phile?

  8. #8
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    Thanks gents

    Many thanks for the pointers; I feel a little more informed now about looking to buy my next rifle.

    Cheers
    Simon

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