Taking the wind - myth or reality?

[Archer50]

Do some types of gun perform better in the wind than others? I know this has been raised before, but I have never seen a definitive answer

For example, there was a lot of talk recently about the BSA Goldstar being particularly good in the wind. I thought it was just a marketing hype or an urban myth, but recently I've become convinced that pellets from my HW100 are less affected by wind than identical pellets, shot at the same targets at more or less the same velocity from my HFT 500. Also, some people seem to need to make far less allowance for the wind than others, even though they are shooting the same pellets – at least, that’s what they say.

It is difficult to test this as it is pretty well impossible to standardise the wind itself, not to mention all the other factors that might be relevant. But the fact remains that many experienced shooters are convinced that the difference is real and that pellets shot from one gun ‘take the wind’ less than others.

What do you guys think? Is the difference real? If so, is it a ballistic effect – different rifling perhaps or changes to BC caused by different barrels - or is it down to the fact that some guns are easier to control in the wind than others and simply get blown around less?

Hope you had a good Christmas.

Alan

[Phil Russell]

There was indeed a long winded (!!) thread on this topic recently; although it started by a observation that one springer take more, or less, wind than a pcp... I cannot remember which way round it was. I suggest you find that thread and have a good read. My own conclusion was that one gun (really read barrel here) and pellet combination can take less wind than another but there is no general rule available yet and I personally do not think there will be. Note that for the term 'one gun' I mean just that, not a certain model but that 'one' gun itself.
Cheers, Phil

PS take care when one shooter says 'I only gave that one mildot allowance for wind', while another replies 'I only gave it a half dot ... my rifle must take less wind than yours!'. There are so many variables here to make such a comparison useless ... prime amongst them being the mag of the scope and the mildot reticle itself.

[charub]

Do some types of gun perform better in the wind than others? I know this has been raised before, but I have never seen a definitive answer

For example, there was a lot of talk recently about the BSA Goldstar being particularly good in the wind. I thought it was just a marketing hype or an urban myth, but recently I've become convinced that pellets from my HW100 are less affected by wind than identical pellets, shot at the same targets at more or less the same velocity from my HFT 500. Also, some people seem to need to make far less allowance for the wind than others, even though they are shooting the same pellets – at least, that’s what they say.

It is difficult to test this as it is pretty well impossible to standardise the wind itself, not to mention all the other factors that might be relevant. But the fact remains that many experienced shooters are convinced that the difference is real and that pellets shot from one gun ‘take the wind’ less than others.

What do you guys think? Is the difference real? If so, is it a ballistic effect – different rifling perhaps or changes to BC caused by different barrels - or is it down to the fact that some guns are easier to control in the wind than others and simply get blown around less?

Hope you had a good Christmas.

Alan

Hi Alan.
I used to shoot a Walther dommie and for one reason or another switched to a Daystate Grand Prix when they first came out.
I visited Petes airgun farm to put my new outfit together and set up a basic zero. I was really pleased with the accuracy and consistency (matched my Walther). I then took it back to the club to use outside, to say I was surprised was an understatement. It took shed loads more wind, I'm talking a kill more at 55yrds! I had been shooting FT for a while and was a AA shooter so was hardly a newbie. It is one of those things that is difficult to scientifically prove but I was experienced enough to know the difference. On a still day it was as accurate but as soon as the breeze lifted I was finding the need to give more wind than I normally would.
The only other rifle I owned that was as forgiving in the wind was my shutz 2020 - don't ask me the reason for this because I really don't know.

[Artfull-Bodger]

Without firing both rifles side by side at the same target your simply guessing!

And that is the only way to prove or disprove this myth, you have to have two, or three, shooters right next to each other firing at the same target at the same time, then swap rifles and do the same test, air rifles are so sensitive to even slight movements of air that there is no way anyone can guess if one rifle takes less wind adjustment than another as you have zero idea if the wind conditions are the same each 5 yards down the range!

[charub]

Without firing both rifles side by side at the same target your simply guessing!

And that is the only way to prove or disprove this myth, you have to have two, or three, shooters right next to each other firing at the same target at the same time, then swap rifles and do the same test, air rifles are so sensitive to even slight movements of air that there is no way anyone can guess if one rifle takes less wind adjustment than another as you have zero idea if the wind conditions are the same each 5 yards down the range!

I actually used this experiment to test my theory. We both settled into a comfortable position and had a 10 second bleeped countdown - the test was conclusive, the Daystate took more wind. There are still too many variables for this to be concrete though.
Take it from me, if you are an experienced shooter shooting at known ranges - you know roughly how much windage to expect. That is what separates the average FT/HFT shooters from the top FT/HFT shooters.
(I'm not suggesting that I am either)

[Bladerunner too]

I actually used this experiment to test my theory. We both settled into a comfortable position and had a 10 second bleeped countdown - the test was conclusive, the Daystate took more wind. There are still too many variables for this to be concrete though.
Take it from me, if you are an experienced shooter shooting at known ranges - you know roughly how much windage to expect. That is what separates the average FT/HFT shooters from the top FT/HFT shooters.
(I'm not suggesting that I am either)

And were both guns chronograph to be exact,? Devils advocate

[charub]

And were both guns chronograph to be exact,? Devils advocate

Both running 785fps with weighed and sorted JSB exacts (my comp pellets)
Look, I know this is a contentious issue, plenty of people have differing opinions - I'm just putting my experiences forward.
I don't profess to know the reason why. Surely barrel quality must make a difference, I really don't know.

[Brian.Samson]

It's not a myth and it's been scientifically proven for hundreds of years.

Pellets from the same tin can and probably will shoot differently out of different rifles/barrels. The difference can be measured using a downrange chrono at 50m and a chrono at the muzzle. The pellet with the highest BC value will take less wind (other things being equal) - nothing magical in it, it's been a part of exterior ballistics calculations for a long time.

When I batch test JSB Exacts, it's not uncommon for the BC values to range from as low 0.017 to as high as 0.0265. The one with the higher BC value will take less wind than the one with the lower BC.

[lensman57]

This can be easily proven or otherwise with the rifles and pellets tested in a wind tunnel. I have a feeling that the difference is more to do with the nature of mechanics of the wind that it is to do with the rifle. Our assumption that natural flow of wind is laminar and of uniform energy profile is probably very far from the truth. I will not be surprised to find out that two identical pellets in flight with the same ballistic parameters and properties will be affected differently by the wind due to its nature .

A.G

[bozzer]

Surely it doesn't seem unreasonable for the same pellets from the same batch, if released differently, sent on their way differently, from different barrels, then the same wind will give different amounts of drift.

If one barrel releases that pellet with less 'wobble' than another then the more stable pellet will have a better BC and will take less wind drift.

Maybe that's to do with the quality of crown or spin rate due to rifling or air release to rear of pellet ... the ballistic boys may answer that ... but it seems obvious that if you have a barrel releasing pellets in a more stable manner than another then those pellets will take less wind.

One would presume that the better BC gives less wind and slightly better ( less ) trajectory.

The latter BSA barrels, as fitted to the Goldstar, have polished barrels so the imperfections are reduced/removed. Maybe that helps with stability. A lot of older BSA barrel men polished their barrels with good results.

Once again, Brian's downrange chrono seems to offer some answers. If Brian has seen downrange chrono readings suggesting that the better BC gives better downrange accuracy then it seems sensible that those pellets are flying with more stability, for longer, and therefore may take less wind.

The " These guns take no wind " comments ... beyond myth ... just pure .

[charub]

It's not a myth and it's been scientifically proven for hundreds of years.

Pellets from the same tin can and probably will shoot differently out of different rifles/barrels. The difference can be measured using a downrange chrono at 50m and a chrono at the muzzle. The pellet with the highest BC value will take less wind (other things being equal) - nothing magical in it, it's been a part of exterior ballistics calculations for a long time.

When I batch test JSB Exacts, it's not uncommon for the BC values to range from as low 0.017 to as high as 0.0265. The one with the higher BC value will take less wind than the one with the lower BC.

Brian, thank you for the more in depth reasoning on this - helps to educate the non believers.

[Brian.Samson]

This can be easily proven or otherwise with the rifles and pellets tested in a wind tunnel. I have a feeling that the difference is more to do with the nature of mechanics of the wind that it is to do with the rifle. Our assumption that natural flow of wind is laminar and of uniform energy profile is probably very far from the truth. I will not be surprised to find out that two identical pellets in flight with the same ballistic parameters and properties will be affected differently by the wind due to its nature .

A.G

On the one hand we have - hundreds of years of the military using proven exterior ballistics equations to drop shells on the heads of our foes, on the other hand we have tales of mystical wind properties and subjective observations in uncontrolled amateur experiments.

I'd say the onus of proof is on the people making those uncontrolled observations to prove that the military have been doing it wrong for hundreds of years. They can spend thousands of pounds on renting a wind tunnel only to find out that surprise surprise, someone's already done it and proved what we already know.

Personally, I'll be putting my money on hundreds of years of exterior ballistics calculations and leave the 'Wind Pixies' theories to others

[RobF]

When comparing rifles fired at the same time it's important to realise there's a lot of error that could be seen in those rifles. For a start the shooter needs to be removed from the equation, because they impart things like cant which is going to make a big windage difference for a small amount of error. Cant on a rifle that's just enough to move the spirit level's bubble's edge to the line is enough to move a pellet 1/2" at 55 yds with no wind with a .177. If you haven't got a level and haven't actually recorded it on the shot, you have no verifiable way of knowing your cant. And that's assuming your opposing partner isn't doing the opposite. And that's assuming it's setup right in the first place.

Once that's been done then they certainly need to be zero'd indoors and their setup looked at closely to ensure they aren't other potential errors. Only then could they be taken outdoors, and then they should be tested in conditions which give similar conditions for both rifles, which probably means putting the rifles next to each other and firing exactly at the same time.

We know pellets and batches vary but the difference between one gun and another is not the hidden exotic details, it's the big things that people miss, and as much as we all think we're special sunflowers and that doesn't apply to us and our kit, but in reality it actually does. It's certainly interesting to delve into the detail, which is why we skip over the boring everyday stuff, but that's where the vast majority of gains are to be had and the remainder aren't gains that ever going to offset them.

[RichardinDorset]

I would say that the choke has the biggest effect on how the pellet is launched from the barrel, assuming the crown is finished properly.

Barrel imperfections will also mean that the fired pellet skirt will be less aerodynamic.

Every barrel will form the pellets slightly differently during firing, so I don't think it's a surprise that one barrel will fire pellets that are more stable in wind.

[riku]

I would say that the choke has the biggest effect on how the pellet is launched from the barrel, assuming the crown is finished properly.

Barrel imperfections will also mean that the fired pellet skirt will be less aerodynamic.

Every barrel will form the pellets slightly differently during firing, so I don't think it's a surprise that one barrel will fire pellets that are more stable in wind.

Yep, rifling marks. Excessive marks increase drag which reduces BC and increases wind drift. You can actually hear the difference in pellet flight noise if we take examples from opposite ends of the spectrum.