Webley Mk3/various Series/and some general technical queries incl lubrication/pellets

[andrewM]

I have just joined the site and introduced myself in an earlier posting. I am impressed by the helpfulness and knowledge of the members, with a wealth of information to be discovered here. Alas, the technical practicalities are beyond my abilities.

History: I owned a variety of air rifles from the age of 12, trading each in for the subsequent purchase. I bought a new Mk3 in 1973 (£29), then a HW35 (the spring deteriorated after about 1000+ shots), then a 1970s BSA Airsporter (erratic power), and a FW127 (a pleasing rifle). I found satisfaction with an Original 45, which I still possess but now never use. In 1998, I bought a re-conditioned BSA Standard 2 (1939) from John Knibbs, which does about 8ft/lbs but has possibly since improved after shooting about 500 pellets and wearing in the new parts.

Mark 3: I have nostalgia for the Mk3, not least its fine lines and reliability and am now buying an A Series (1968 production) for £300, which has only shot some 1000 pellets. It is probably not possible to find anything unused and this one has hopefully only just been run in.

Having rediscovered my enthusiasm for air rifles, I should be grateful for guidance with respect to the following and dare say some of the answers will assist other readers:

1 Lubrication: Probably, the leather washer (the gun has never been taken apart) will be dry, so should I fill the tap loader with some ‘Weboil’, allowing this to soak in for 24 hours or so? What quantity should I use for this purpose?

2 Greasing: What grease should be used for the mainspring? I have some old Abbey gun grease LT2 – molybdenum - designed for compression springs, so presume this is well-suited.

3 It used to be said that one could fire underlevers with the tap loader in the open position, for testing purposes. I recall John Knibbs advising me this, which reconfirmed what others had informed me as a boy. Is this correct?

4 On a similar hue, if one accidentally fires an air rifle without a pellet in the breach, will this cause irreparable damage or would this have to happen several times before serious damage occurred?

5 Should an underlever be loaded only after cocking? If the weapon is later uncocked, with a pellet in the breech, can it then be re-cocked without losing efficiency or will the air intake into the air chamber be reduced if a pellet is in the tap? If so, it is evident the pellet must be fired if a quarry escapes, rather than allowing the spring to suffer undue pressure over a prolonged period.

6 It is sad to learn that Eley Wasp has discontinued and that the cast machinery has been destroyed, in favour of an inferior Wasp brand today. It seems, from this site, that Milbro Caledonian Ultras are the preferred alternative, with RWS Superdomes also attractive. Any views on accuracy and power? Are these closer to the .22 measurements (5.6mm?)?

7 Is it possible to source original Eley Wasps anywhere?

8 Apart from the scope rail, the tap loader lever and some trigger alterations, were there any design alterations to the Mk3 which actually impacted on performance between the various Series produced, during the production of this weapon between 1947-1975?

Possibly, some of these questions should be separate threads themselves but I did not want to clutter the forum with too many threads. Quite happy to submit them separately if this helps, however, as many are general and not restricted to the Mk3.

Any information from forum members would be gratefully received.

Rgds to all
Andrew.

[Troubledshooter]

Welcome to the Airgun BBS.
If you haven't already bought it, Chris Thrale's 'Webley Air Rifles - 1925 - 2005' would be a good investment; other than that, I'm sure JM or an equally knowledgeable member will be along soon to answer your questions.

[Binners]

Welcome to the best part of the best A/G forum ever. While we wait for those more knowledgeable to help with your queries, see if you can obtain a copy of the Feb edition of AGW, there is a 2 page article on the MK 3 that makes good reading.....

[andrewM]

Thank you Binners and TroubledShooter for your guidance, much appreciated.

I fear that this site might feed a collecting habit that I might regret!

I hope JM picks up my enquiry:he sounds like one of those knowledgeable fellows one might travel a distance to meet.

I agree that this must be the best part of this prestigious forum; I feel - perhaps like many here - that the new weapons, whilst superlative in terms of efficiency, technology and sights, make it all too easy. I used to shoot with Parker Hale sights at Bisley, on open ranges with .303 Lee Enfields and that was a challenge at 600m but they were wonderful rifles which could be mastered.

Where can I find a copy of the Feb AGW? Can it be sent to me if I supply contact details?

This is the first blog I have joined and I am still finding my way around it; I fear my introductory email has not yet appeared and perhaps ended up not being sent or received, due to a glitch. If so, I shall try to recall what I wrote and try again. Not sure how to find the section on the forum, 'new members and introductions'.

Are there ever any enthusiast meetings in the South East, do you know? I live in West Sussex.

[Josie & John]

I have just joined the site and introduced myself in an earlier posting. I am impressed by the helpfulness and knowledge of the members, with a wealth of information to be discovered here. Alas, the technical practicalities are beyond my abilities.

History: I owned a variety of air rifles from the age of 12, trading each in for the subsequent purchase. I bought a new Mk3 in 1973 (£29), then a HW35 (the spring deteriorated after about 1000+ shots), then a 1970s BSA Airsporter (erratic power), and a FW127 (a pleasing rifle). I found satisfaction with an Original 45, which I still possess but now never use. In 1998, I bought a re-conditioned BSA Standard 2 (1939) from John Knibbs, which does about 8ft/lbs but has possibly since improved after shooting about 500 pellets and wearing in the new parts.

Mark 3: I have nostalgia for the Mk3, not least its fine lines and reliability and am now buying an A Series (1968 production) for £300, which has only shot some 1000 pellets. It is probably not possible to find anything unused and this one has hopefully only just been run in.

Having rediscovered my enthusiasm for air rifles, I should be grateful for guidance with respect to the following and dare say some of the answers will assist other readers:

1 Lubrication: Probably, the leather washer (the gun has never been taken apart) will be dry, so should I fill the tap loader with some ‘Weboil’, allowing this to soak in for 24 hours or so? What quantity should I use for this purpose?

2 Greasing: What grease should be used for the mainspring? I have some old Abbey gun grease LT2 – molybdenum - designed for compression springs, so presume this is well-suited.

3 It used to be said that one could fire underlevers with the tap loader in the open position, for testing purposes. I recall John Knibbs advising me this, which reconfirmed what others had informed me as a boy. Is this correct?

4 On a similar hue, if one accidentally fires an air rifle without a pellet in the breach, will this cause irreparable damage or would this have to happen several times before serious damage occurred?

5 Should an underlever be loaded only after cocking? If the weapon is later uncocked, with a pellet in the breech, can it then be re-cocked without losing efficiency or will the air intake into the air chamber be reduced if a pellet is in the tap? If so, it is evident the pellet must be fired if a quarry escapes, rather than allowing the spring to suffer undue pressure over a prolonged period.

6 It is sad to learn that Eley Wasp has discontinued and that the cast machinery has been destroyed, in favour of an inferior Wasp brand today. It seems, from this site, that Milbro Caledonian Ultras are the preferred alternative, with RWS Superdomes also attractive. Any views on accuracy and power? Are these closer to the .22 measurements (5.6mm?)?

7 Is it possible to source original Eley Wasps anywhere?

8 Apart from the scope rail, the tap loader lever and some trigger alterations, were there any design alterations to the Mk3 which actually impacted on performance between the various Series produced, during the production of this weapon between 1947-1975?

Possibly, some of these questions should be separate threads themselves but I did not want to clutter the forum with too many threads. Quite happy to submit them separately if this helps, however, as many are general and not restricted to the Mk3.

Any information from forum members would be gratefully received.

Rgds to all
Andrew.

Hi Andrew,

Welcome to the Collectables section of the BBS.

I hope some of this may be of use:

1. I would initially place 3 drops of either Weboil or Abbey/Bisley SM50 in the tap and after closing the tap, work the underlever back and forth a few times. Just before the underlever comes to rest, I sometimes jam a wooden spoon between the lever and barrel just to give it a few mm for the oil to soak into the washer overnight.

2. LT2 is perfect and if you are stripping the rifle to this extent, I would also take out the piston and properly oil it with moly in favour of point 1 above.

3. I wouldn't do this myself with one of my rifles.

4. This would need to happen on a constant basis for it to be detrimental, although I would avoid doing so if you can.

5. Always cock an underlever first and load second. I wouldn't recommend 'de-cocking' and would suggest firing the pellet in a safe direction.

6. Agreed with your first point. I have had good results with RWS Hobbies and H&N FTT in my .22 Mark 3s. JSBs also work, as do Superdomes.

7. Yes - on t'bay but price can be a bit high if you intend to regularly use them.

8. See Chris Thrale's book as Troubledshooter has already suggested. You won't be disappointed with the content.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

John

[Geezer]

Andrew

Welcome.

That's a characteristically full, helpful, and expert view from John.

I'd just add another plug for Chris Thrale's very good book.

Never cock a taploader with a pellet in the tap. The risk is the pellet seals the transfer port, and so when you fire there is almost no air in front of the piston. Which is a bad thing.

On point 3, I wouldn't do it either, but the safe option would be to try de-cocking while firmly holding the lever with the tap open. Never tried it myself though.

[AC99]

Hi Andrew and welcome to BBS.
All your questions seem to have been satisfactorily answered.
However, regarding your third question concerning firing the rifle with the tap open again I would not do this either but a useful test regarding the mk3,s compression is to cock the rifle and holding the lever back firmly, open the tap, release the trigger allowing piston to move forward under control of cocking lever which you need to hold tightly and allow lever to return to its closed position.
If there is little resistance, accompanied by air hissing past the tap indicates a poorly fitting tap or the piston washer may have failed or dried out which will affect its performance. If the tap and piston washer are good fits then when opening tap once cocking lever is closed, compressed air in the chamber will escape through the tap with a satisfying whoosh. Again, do not be tempted to fire rifle with tap open.
Aubrey

[andrewM]

Very many thanks to John, Geezer and AC99 for your helpful replies, enormously appreciated as I re-discover my youthful interest in air weapons again.

John, you stated: "Just before the underlever comes to rest, I sometimes jam a wooden spoon between the lever and barrel just to give it a few mm for the oil to soak into the washer overnight." I did not understand this. Surely the oil will soak through to the washer if the underlever is closed?

I will not be stripping the rifle - far too adventurous and technical for me but I would seek to apply LT2 through the gap in the stock, underneath the rifle albeit, that will not provide comprehensive coverage.

By t'bay, I take it you mean ?! Apologies if I am not up with the current terms, here.

I will seek out Thrale's book when next I am at a gunsmith. Other people have suggested Hiller's book.

Kind regards
Andrew.

[deejayuu]

Good info. for you, already, as usual.
Just to add that the transfer port dia. of a .22 will allow a pellet to pass through into the compression chamber
so don't re cock with pellet in tap. In truth don't risk holding the rifle vertical 'cos a loose pellet can fall in.
The front stock bracket screws usually work loose so you may want to thread lock them.
The compression test for springers is a useful exercise and well worth practicing especially with tap loaders 'cos it's so easy informative and fun!

[Geezer]

Chris Thrale's Webley rifle book will keep you happy.

Gordon Bruce has a very good book on Webley pistols, if they are of interest.

Dennis Hiller's "Collectors Guide to Air Rifles" is a good read, in 3 or 4 editions.

Of the three, for a MkIII owner, I'd go for Chris's

John Walter's Airgun Book is also good, but more so for 1980s and beyond.

[micky2]

Hi very good advice from the above replys, as to the books go on to *bay and you will find the Webley rifles book and other airgun books, but searce through as the prices do vary a lot. a visit to one of the arms fairs is a good idear as you will find a good choice of airguns and meet like minded people there as well.
It seems like you might have the start of the collecting bug which can be dangerous for your wallet.

Mick.

[Josie & John]

Very many thanks to John, Geezer and AC99 for your helpful replies, enormously appreciated as I re-discover my youthful interest in air weapons again.

John, you stated: "Just before the underlever comes to rest, I sometimes jam a wooden spoon between the lever and barrel just to give it a few mm for the oil to soak into the washer overnight." I did not understand this. Surely the oil will soak through to the washer if the underlever is closed?

I will not be stripping the rifle - far to adventurous and technical for me but I would seek to apply LT2 through the gap in the stock, underneath the rifle albeit, that will not provide comprehensive coverage.

By t'bay, I take it you mean ?! Apologies if I am not up with the current terms, here.

I will seek out Thrale's book when next I am at a gunsmith. Other people have suggested Hiller's book.

Kind regards
Andrew.

Hi Andrew,

Oil should soak through when the piston is at rest but by easing the tension between the washer and breech face of the air cylinder with the wooden spoon, it stops the leather washer from compressing whilst you apply the oil and sinks into the while of the front face. The alternative is to leave the rifle fully cocked overnight whilst soaking the washer but I don't like to leave cocked rifles unattended if I can help it.

We can't mention the internet auction site that starts with an E on here, hence t'bay

You should be able to pick up February's Airgun World in WH Smiths or other high street newsagents. The issue is out this week. Please also keep an eye out on the March issue of Airgunner for more on the Webley Supertarget - that issue should be out in around 3 weeks.

Sounds like you have a nice rifle there. Good luck with your project.

Kind regards,

John (JM)

[andrewM]

First, further thanks to all previous correspondents and also to further correspondents, Deejayuu and Micky2. I am learning rapidly, thanks to all the kind advice and guidance of those here.

Today, I received my Mk2 (an A Series, probably first batch, around 1968) but due to the high lacquer on the stock, I wonder if it could be the second A Series, perhaps 1971. Anyway, I can see the spring is well greased and a small film of smoke appears when one pumps the underlever once or twice, after shooting a pellet, and that tells me the washer is lubricated.

I carried out some tests with some old Eley Wasps on a flat steel target holder, with paper in place to obviate any rebound. Only the centre of the wasp pellets remained, with a thin inner skirt of merely about 1mm, surrounding the flattened head. I then used some old Hobby pellets with flat heads (wadcutters?) and these were devastated, with only the very centre of the heads remaining and no skirt whatsoever. This all tells me that the rifle must be doing around 10-11ft/lbs and perhaps 550+ fps - which is encouraging.

I have also done the tap-loading test - thank you to John and to AC99 for your advice. I can report as follows.

First, presumably you are not saying that I can cock the gun, then open the loading tap and then pull the trigger and the underlever will hold its position unless and until the tap is opened again?

I did try the test, as suggested. I opened the loading tap and gently allowed the lever back into position again. By that time, a few seconds later, all the air had escaped and there was no pressure remaining when I closed the loading tap. However, if I did this more rapidly, by the time the underlever was down to its last - say 15% - of travel (ie some 85% returned to closure), there was a consistent whoosh when I opened the tap. A second or two longer and the air seemed to have escaped somewhere or other.

I do hope this is what it should be doing as it seems the power is up to scratch. I wonder where the air goes, though, if the loading tap is up and one slowly de-cocks the lever? If there was absolute air tightness, one could open the loading tap after the rifle was cocked and then pull the trigger and nothing would happen as the underlever would not return to closure. If I did this, however, it would slam back into position I suspect!

I tried this procedure on an old BSA Standard No 2 (1939), restored by John Knibbs in 1998. The power is only about 8ft/lbs and I gather it should do around 11ft/lbs. There was no 'whoosh' on opening the loading tap. I could feel an escape of air from that general area. I now know it needs attention but who has the expertise to attend to this, I wonder? I am in West Sussex but could send it for some expert attention (for which I would pay a fee).

This rifle does, nonetheless, produce some excellent groupings: in 1998, I achieved a 3/4 in group at 25yds, from a cushion being used as a rest and I think the bead foresight is a superior design. I might open a new thread on this as it will interest BSA Standard owners on the site.

I wonder why one cannot mention *bay?! I did read the rules but this one seems to have eluded me. On the other hand, I cannot find any old Eley Wasps on that site.

Rgds to all
Andrew.

[abellringer]

Nice thread to start sir; multiple content on this forum is never a problem and I endorse the recommendations already given especially JM and Chris Thrale, very very knowledgeable people. One point not in the general pool of knowledge and so not mentioned is that on occasion the cyl to breech block soldering had small bubbles in it sometimes leading to a leak via the front stock screw hole [s], this was cured by the judicial use of good old fashioned 'bubble gum' suitably chewed for softness and a small plug of it popped into the relevant hole; screw fitted and left to stand; this was a superb cure and in recent times this pink substance is often confused with loc-tight, which wasn't used in the factory until much later.
It has to be said that like some iconic older air guns there is a little boosting of the accuracy and power in peoples minds but that should not detract from what these guns were in their day and thankfully people still see them as very desirable which is exactly as it should be.
I have to endorse the points about firing with the tap open; BSA's generally do not have the same quality of seal that MKIII's have so will snap shut the cocking lever with some ferocity; the MKIII is often cocked, the tap opened , the cocking arm put closed and the trigger pulled and hopefully after a few seconds the tap rotated with a hiss of air proving the piston and tap are well sealed, this is not really recommended and never put a pellet in a tap and just cock the gun; or put the pellet in the tap and turn it in line to fire and then cock the gun, in some guns air can be trapped with weird effect or the pellet can be sucked back into the cyl.
Hope some of this helps and continue to soak up good advice for the forum.
ATVB
abellringer

[Binners]

Some great advice above. I would like to add that the loading tap test on the Webly MK3 and early BSAs is not necessarily a true guide to a good seal. I have a few rifles that don't make the ''wooosh'' but seal tightly when turned 90 degrees(in line) and it is in this position where it counts.

Cantankerous old bastard, aren't I