Latest article... Bedford's Eureka...

[JimmieDee]

Here is a link to my latest article. It's all about the Bedford Eureka, his relationships with Walker, Pope and Quackenbush. As usual it is full of detailed photographs and patent drawings.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jimmi...40200349411170

[cinedux]

Thank you James.

[Abasmajor]

Hi James,

Thanks for posting the very comprehensive review of this extremely rare and interesting piece of air gun history.

Regards

Brian

[Garvin]

Here is a link to my latest article. It's all about the Bedford Eureka, his relationships with Walker, Pope and Quackenbush. As usual it is full of detailed photographs and patent drawings.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jimmi...40200349411170

Interesting, Jimmie. Thanks. Lots of speculation, but going that far back in time it's not suprising. Thank God for patent documents!

'Rollin Marble'? That's cruel!

[JimmieDee]

Interesting, Jimmie. Thanks. Lots of speculation, but going that far back in time it's not suprising. Thank God for patent documents!

'Rollin Marble'? That's cruel!

Indeed Danny. I think I tried to make it clear whenever there was speculation. All food for thought. I like to try to get into their minds so to speak. But that "letter" at the end..... that really confuses the issue even further. And the British patents, patent agents etc. It must have been an interesting time in Boston.

[JimmieDee]

I think my next article will be about the Quackenbush rifle. The one which you cock by pushing the barrel in that was originally a patent for an air pistol but became very successful as a rifle.

I'd like to get a copy of Quackenbush Guns by John Groenewold. If anyone has one I can buy or at the least loan me I would be grateful as they are very expensive new from John in the US and with shipping costs on top... well, the cost if prohibitive!

[Garvin]

More speculation on the letter: if it was written after Bedford bought up Pope's stock (and the IP rights to the rifle pistol?) he may have felt he had the authority to portray the Eureka as a continuation of the Pope pistol - for marketing purposes, that is.

So while he may not have actually marketed the rifle pistol himself originally, he was presenting himself as its manufacturer - to prospective Eureka retailers...?

Is that possible?

[JimmieDee]

More speculation on the letter: if it was written after Bedford bought up Pope's stock (and the IP rights to the rifle pistol?) he may have felt he had the authority to portray the Eureka as a continuation of the Pope pistol - for marketing purposes, that is.

So while he may not have actually marketed the rifle pistol himself originally, he was presenting himself as its manufacturer - to prospective Eureka retailers...?

Is that possible?

It certainly is a possibility. It certainly makes sense.

[ccdjg]

Indeed Danny. I think I tried to make it clear whenever there was speculation. All food for thought. I like to try to get into their minds so to speak. But that "letter" at the end..... that really confuses the issue even further. And the British patents, patent agents etc. It must have been an interesting time in Boston.

A very interesting article. However I don't think we should read too much into Bedford's claim that he introduced the Pope pistol to the market, as airgun producers and sellers at that time were very fond of making outrageous claims in order to boost sales. Typical examples are Quackenbush's claim in New Scientist that his little gat spring air pistol "could throw a pellet over a hundred yards", and the use of the same highly flattering testimonials from General Sherman and others for both Pope pistol and for the Eureka pistols, when it was quite clear that the testimonials could only refer to one of them.

It seems pretty clear from the record that Pope patented, manufactured and sold his pistol from his Boston shop right from the outset. Bedford appears to have just sold the Pope pistol after he took over Pope's shop, and these may even have been residual stock . At the time he was also selling Quackenbush's rifle-air pistol from this shop, marking them as made by him, whereas it seems most likely he was being supplied with them by Quackenbush. So he was not averse to self promotion to help his business.

I suspect that Bedford was deliberately being ambiguous, and he was really saying "After I had started selling the Pope pistol" rather than "After I introduced the Pope pistol".

[Garvin]

I suppose we shouldn't view all this 19th century American activity through a 'proper', law-abiding 21st century British prism. It sounds like the Wild West out there at the time and that they were little better than snake oil salesmen when it came to the exact truth of what they were selling!

Mind you, the British airgun sellers in the 1920s and '30s were not exactly transparent when it came to rebadging German 'grey' imports as their own, and making great power claims for their less-than-impressive products...

[JimmieDee]

Hello John. Great discussion. I tend to agree with you and Danny.

With regards to Bedford and the Quackenbush pistol, he did at least stamp them as made by him and at his 45 High Street address. Unless perhaps Quackenbush stamped them for him. But that would seem strange.

[ccdjg]

Yes, I suspect that Quackenbush provided him with the castings and Bedford may have made the smaller components and assembled the pistols in his workshop, which would have justified him marking the guns the way he did. There is no reason why Quackenbush would have objected to this.

Casting iron and steel was a highly specialised process back then, and Quackenbush had invested in and become proficient in this so it makes sense that the smaller airgun makers, like Bedford, Johnson & Bye, and Pope would have cooperated with Quackenbush in this way. The fact that the Quackenbush and Bedford rifle-air pistols have identical frames supports their originating from the same foundry. (We are of course talking about the Quackenbush-patented rifle air pistol here, not the Pope version, in case anyone is a bit confused.)

[JimmieDee]

If that were to be true, it would imply that Quackenbush may also have provided castings for the Eureka as the shape is so similar to the Quackenbush. Also, I've seen stampings in a cast Bedford Quackenbush pistol where the stamp could only have been made at the time of the casting. It seems odd that Quackenbush would stamp his own creation as made by Bedford. Still, we don't actually know either way. We know that Bedford had at least sold machine tools from his business in Devonshire Street. Maybe he also made iron castings.

[ccdjg]

It is largely speculation of course but it would not surprise me if Quackenbush was involved in providing castings for all these pistols of the 1870-80's period, the Pope, Champion, Eureka, Carey and Cross, as they are interconnected in so many ways.
Certainly the people involved all knew one another. When Bedford moved to Quackenbush's factory the Eureka continued to be made there for a few years, which would be a sensible business decision if the castings were already being made there.

I have never come across a Bedford rifle-air air pistol with cast lettering, as they usually have very small stamped lettering exactly the same size as on the Quackenbush version, and in the same location on the frame. What was the nature of the lettering on the example you have seen?

Unfortunately John Groenwald's book sheds no light on these questions so there is still a lot of research to be done, which I suppose is what makes this field so fascinating for collectors.

[JimmieDee]

It is largely speculation of course but it would not surprise me if Quackenbush was involved in providing castings for all these pistols of the 1870-80's period, the Pope, Champion, Eureka, Carey and Cross, as they are interconnected in so many ways.
Certainly the people involved all knew one another. When Bedford moved to Quackenbush's factory the Eureka continued to be made there for a few years, which would be a sensible business decision if the castings were already being made there.

I have never come across a Bedford rifle-air air pistol with cast lettering, as they usually have very small stamped lettering exactly the same size as on the Quackenbush version, and in the same location on the frame. What was the nature of the lettering on the example you have seen?

Unfortunately John Groenwald's book sheds no light on these questions so there is still a lot of research to be done, which I suppose is what makes this field so fascinating for collectors.

I received images from Bruce Stauff of a Bedford (Quackenbush) which has the lettering cast into it. I'll send you a copy via email...