When was the first original 75?

[RobinC]

Regulars will know I'm looking for a particular Original 75 used internationally and nationally by my wife, now I've given up and I'm looking for a suitable candidate to build a replica from.

We believe hers was one of the first into the UK, if not the first as she was the only GB team member using an Original, and the importers got her an early one, but we can't remember exactly when, (old farts!). She won a medal at the British Airgun Championships at Cardiff in 1977, but can't remember if that was with her previous Original 66, or with the 75, if the 75 was available then it would have been with that. She also won medals at Intershoot in the Hague, Holland, definitely with the 75 in 1980, but we believe that was towards the end of her time with it.

Are there any collector guru's out there who know when they did appear?

Robin

[aimless]

AFAIK the first model did not have the T01 trigger. ( I have never seen one ;-) ) And I can not date that version (75 B) . 1975

[Drew451]

I think the 75 was introduced in 1977, Robin. Don't know where I read this but it's in the old memory bank somehow. But whether the UK got any in that year I don't know. The examples I have owned or seen have been from '78 onwards.

The 66 is often said to have been introduced in 1974 but I have seen one 1973 example for sale. Can't remember the month but I assume it was late '73.

[RobinC]

I Thought the first were '77, it certainly wasn't '75, the model name was a "convenient number"

[RobinC]

I've tried to find frank Dykes who were the importers then, but I presume the've closed down as there seems to be no record of the company now.

I know they tried very hard to get her one and I'm sure she had the first one they could get, and I have '77 in my mind but I'm not sure.

I know which ever year it was, she shot it at Cardiff in the British Championships, and it seized up, locked open, she walked of the point to the Dykes trade stand which was there, they took the action out of her stock, and refitted a new one taken off their display model and she continued, and still qualified for the final.

Don't know if M&G have any records from those days, may be worth trying them.

[Geezer]

John Walter's book says 1977.

Airgun Digest 1978 calls the Beeman-branded 75 a "new super match air rifle".

[Garvin]

Regulars will know I'm looking for a particular Original 75 used internationally and nationally by my wife, now I've given up and I'm looking for a suitable candidate to build a replica from.

We believe hers was one of the first into the UK, if not the first as she was the only GB team member using an Original, and the importers got her an early one, but we can't remember exactly when, (old farts!). She won a medal at the British Airgun Championships at Cardiff in 1977, but can't remember if that was with her previous Original 66, or with the 75, if the 75 was available then it would have been with that. She also won medals at Intershoot in the Hague, Holland, definitely with the 75 in 1980, but we believe that was towards the end of her time with it.

Are there any collector guru's out there who know when they did appear?

Robin

If John Walter says 1977, I would go with that. I do recall reading that Diana had problems with getting the sidelever design of the mod 75 right as it tried to compete with the Feinwerkbau 300S and converted the mod 66 from break barrel to sidelever. But from a marketing point of view the delay meant that crucially Diana 'missed the boat', IIRC, because the world beating Walther LGR SSP came out (in 1975?) and spelled the end for recoilless springers, even if it took several years to kill them off for good.

[Drew451]

Diana were still introducing break barrel match rifles for several years after the FWB sidelevers came on the scene so you could argue it was a boat they hadn't even thought about catching.
It then took FWB, Diana, Anschutz a very long time to even consider even going down the pneumatic route. About 9 years I think.

I think the 75 and 300 were still selling in good numbers well into the 1980s.

I do prefer the look and feel of the 75.

[Garvin]

Diana were still introducing break barrel match rifles for several years after the FWB sidelevers came on the scene so you could argue it was a boat they hadn't even thought about catching.
It then took FWB, Diana, Anschutz a very long time to even consider even going down the pneumatic route. About 9 years I think.

I think the 75 and 300 were still selling in good numbers well into the 1980s.

I do prefer the look and feel of the 75.

True. Probably I should have said "belatedly"...

It's a good question why the other manufacturers took so long to follow Walther, given the reputed success of the LGR (I think, but have no proof, that the LGR quickly knocked FWB off its perch). Maybe they just couldn't produce their own SSPs in a way that avoided Walther's patent?

It would be a good subject for a book for someone, since presumably most (or at least many) people involved are still alive to tell the tale - for now!

I also prefer the 'dead' feeling of recoillessness on firing the Giss guns, although I prefer the FWB pistols to the Giss ones, for some reason.

[Drew451]

I have often wondered why the LGR was the lone SSP for so many years and it may well be due to patents, I don't know. Although the spring guns, in particular the 300 and Anschutz 380 were still holding their own against it at the top level til the mid 1980s, I think many people started regarding the LGR as the best. I think it was the choice of those at the absolute top of the sport and it set the world record at the time. The other manufacturers may have been eying it's sales.
Robin has good insight into match rifles of all eras and may be able to advise...

[RobinC]

As regards the "75" thanks Danny, I think you've given the last bit of info to confirm '77 as the first ones. And we know her standard stepped up moving from the 66 to the 75, and 77 was her first Championship medal so I think that fits.

And we know Dykes tried hard to get one as early as possible for her so we are now fairly sure it was '77. And the early side lever problems also fits as well.
Her's, which we think was the first into the UK jammed open in that championship and Dykes took a system off of their display one from their trade stand which she continued with. I do have a recollection of it jamming again in a match in Germany, and the factory either repaired it or replaced the action, I can't remember which.

We travelled about a lot then doing the various national events and International events, particularly in Europe, in that period from the European Championships in London in 1975 then up to 83 ish. The dominant rifle in the GB squad and also generally Internationally was definitely the FWB 300, the Anschutz was almost non existent, Pam's was the sole Original, and even the Walther LGR was initially very thin on the ground then.

The FWB 300 held the world record, it was very reliable, and they had a superb support team at every big meeting (even in the UK), and that counted for a lot. You could go to meetings, 150 people, all bar 2 or 3 were FWB's!
I think in "the day", FWB out marketed, and out serviced the competitors, and they built a loyalty that still holds almost to this day, and in the early days it took a brave man (or woman) to shoot some thing else.


I don't know why she went for the Original, she could have had any thing, she started with a 65 then a 66, so perhaps she had just got used to them, and perhaps typical female, liked being different. The 75, other than the problems was as good as the 300, the balance was a bit less muzzle weighted, the trigger was about the same when set up well (not so easy as the 300), and the recoil characteristic was nicer than the 300, and it was cheaper! But as far as we know she was the only one who shot one internationally.

Now the LGR, the early LGR's were a pig to cock which put off a lot of people, and especially women and light built men, there was also prejudice against the system, ie. air held under pressure, surely it would leak if you took a long aim? So basically it took a while to get accepted, so trust factor, and I think the other companies had no experience of SSP, whilst Walther had been building nice SSP pistols for a long time, and the others spring recoilless guns won everything so why bother? And the LGR still had a degree of subtle recoil (damn great hammer hitting the valve), as had the 300, the 75 was probably closer to recoilless. But the LGR and its much better later derivatives definitely moved on the game, the FWB 600 was a better design but the balance was awful, a FWB problem inherited by many others.

At that time, after a match in Southern Germany, all the foreign competitors were invited to Walther for a tour, my wife was asked why she did not shoot a Walther, she gave them a list! Too big grip, too long reach to the trigger, too difficult to load, etc, etc! The man she was talking to was Herr Walther Senior. Three months later she received the pre production LGR Junior, which suitably shortened and balanced, she shot until she retired from top level (and still has it), and we both shoot Walther to this day, act as ambassadors for them, and have a superb relation ship with the factory to this day.

I'm not that into classics, just nostalgia, which is why I'm looking to build this replica (or find the original), but I love the technology of the modern rifles which are million miles from those older era rifles.

We coach some youngsters, they are shooting scores higher than the old days world records, last training session I got out Pam's old LGR, they could not even cock it! Don't know they are born! Monty Python sketch any one?

Have Fun
Robin

[Garvin]

Thanks for that very interesting first hand history, Robin. Priceless stuff.

So it seems that the LGR had a slow start ironing out its teething troubles and gaining acceptance. It makes sense for a generation of top-level shooters weaned on quality springers, I suppose.

That would explain why Anschutz still thought it was worth bringing out its LG380 match springer years later (in 1983, '84?).

Just shows how brand loyalty really helps a manufacturer shift its goods, even when they are 'old tech'!

[derekj]

That was a lovely read Robin. So nice of Herr Walther to listen to constructive criticism and then generously act on it. What a surprise that must have been! I have in my possession an Original 75 HV complete with all of the tools and alternative foresight weight assembly etc. It is a wonderfully engineered rifle virtually unmarked. If my example is anything to go by, the Diana factory must of sourced some excellent walnut for the stock blanks. I'm assuming German walnut was used?

[RobinC]

Thanks Danny and Derek,

The Walther company then was very much a family business and I think that ethos came over to customers. It was the start of a relation ship which we value to this day.

I have no idea on the Original walnut, but the early Walther walnut stocks were a joy. On one of our many visits to Donnau Strasse in Ulm, to the orignal old factory, I asked how they did the stippling and was rewarded with a visit to the dept and left for the afternoon with the "master" who showed me not only how to do it by hand as did he, but how to make the tools to do it, a skill I treasure in this day of now all automation. And the stacks of walnut outside in the open but covered (like a bicycle shed) store, the smell, Mmmmm! Any Walther we ordered in those days we always asked for the best pretty stocks!

The new Walther is the same ethos, many know that it was bought by Umarex, but don't know that Umarex is owned by the PT group, which is sole owned by two men, one an old family friend of the Walther family and he is the CEO. A family member is still on the management team. The new factory is at Lehrer (just outside Ulm) is like a clinic, the CEO is often about the plant with an interest in everything, and is often seen in the factory smoking room chatting with the workers, and not just listening to ideas but acting on them. Every time we are in Southern Germany we visit, we go to the sports services dept to get ours, and the kids we coach, target guns serviced (and to find out the latest tweaks!), meet old friends, and if the opportunity arises have another look around their stunning private museum.

We are sadly, totally biased Walther - philes!

[RobinC]

Right, I now have an early model 75 to work on to build the replica, its the right stock and trigger guard, but there are some diferences from the Ladies original Original.

It's serial number 012830, anyone know when this dates from?

It has an adjustable foresight, but the wife is insistant that her original one had metal elements, she has never (ever, even now she uses metal elements in her modern rifles) shot with plastic elements or an adjustable one, and looking at this one, I would have remembered if I'd either converted it, as it would have needed special elements or the complete tunnel changing and that is not straight forward. Hers was a very early one, early 1977, does any one know if they made the early ones with a different foresight tunnel, perhaps utilised the one from the 66, but I thought that was a dovetail? On the only picture I have its not clear, but it does not look like the adjustable tunnel fitted to the one I have.

If you have a 75 with a standard element foresight tunnel I'd be interested to know?

Another bit evident from the picture is the tacky black plastic on the side slots, its just plain wood, does any one know when thay started adding the black bits?

Any clues would be much appreciated.