Short-lived designs

[Garvin]

This 'harmonica pistol' is up for sale at the Hermann Historica auction house. Barmy design when compared to eg. the revolver...

It makes you think about airguns, particularly how the Certus and Parker 'Precision' were presumably hoped to be 'the next big thing' by their inventors/makers, who invested money into their manufacture.

But then as history showed, the simplicity and brilliance of the Johnstone & Fearn patent Webley design destroyed the commercial prospects of most other air pistols, in a design that persisted for many decades. The Certus was actually patented several years after the Webley and appears to be based on it, to some extent.

[Abasmajor]

Hi Danny,

Ironically, the the Johnstone & Fearn patent included the possibility of hinging the barrel at the breech end which it is believed influenced the decision to withdraw the Certus from the market.

The Westley Richards 'Concentric' Highest Possible was yet another short lived design that probably owed it's demise to the iconic Webley alternative.

Regards

Brian

[flogger]

Hi Danny,

Ironically, the th Johnstone & Fern patent included the possibility of hinging the barrel at the breech end which it is believed influenced the decision to withdraw the Certus from the market.

The Westley Richards 'Concentric' Highest Possible was yet another short lived design that probably owed it's demise to the iconic Webley alternative.

Regards

Brian

I believe they infringed certain Webley patents thats why they came off the market.
Roly.

[45flint]

Similar situation with the Targ-Aire and the Hy-Score over here in America. Both came out right after the War but the Targ-Aire went away very quickly. I think the Hy-Score had both a cost advantage and superior performance. Timing is everything in life? I do love the seemingly endless designs the English come up with. Collectors dream.

[Garvin]

Hi Danny,

Ironically, the the Johnstone & Fearn patent included the possibility of hinging the barrel at the breech end which it is believed influenced the decision to withdraw the Certus from the market.

The Westley Richards 'Concentric' Highest Possible was yet another short lived design that probably owed it's demise to the iconic Webley alternative.

Regards

Brian

Interesting, Brian. In that case it makes you wonder how Cogswell & Harrison got to the stage of having tooled up and gone into production with the Certus at all, five years after the Webley patent was approved?

[45flint]

By the way great grips on that Parker!

[Garvin]

By the way great grips on that Parker!

They are nice, but not originals, which were generally quite plain.

[Abasmajor]

Interesting, Brian. In that case it makes you wonder how Cogswell & Harrison got to the stage of having tooled up and gone into production with the Certus at all, five years after the Webley patent was approved?

Patents can be funny old things sometimes Danny. For instance, I can't understand how the 'Thunderbolt Junior' and 'Ackvoke' could be awarded separate patents when apart from physical size, the designs bore such a strong resemblance to the Tell 2. I remember an earlier discussion on the forum regarding BSA feeling the need to stamp so many separate parts on the LJ / BSA rifles with the associated patent numbers given that it probably provided little protection in itself. We all know how many foreign made air guns from that era were imported, possibly modified very slightly and then sold under British makers trade names as their own design.

Regards

Brian

[Garvin]

Patents can be funny old things sometimes Danny. For instance, I can't understand how the 'Thunderbolt Junior' and 'Ackvoke' could be awarded separate patents when apart from physical size, the designs bore such a strong resemblance to the Tell 2. I remember an earlier discussion on the forum regarding BSA feeling the need to stamp so many separate parts on the LJ / BSA rifles with the associated patent numbers given that it probably provided little protection in itself. We all know how many foreign made air guns from that era were imported, possibly modified very slightly and then sold under British makers trade names as their own design.

Regards

Brian

True, Brian, the story of patents, especially foreign ones, seems rather murky. But you'd think that large British gunmakers would have respected each others' intellectual property enough to stop one tooling up for a gun that breached another's patent, wouldn't you? Could they have licensed the design - getting Webley's permission to make a gun based on its patent?

[Abasmajor]

True, Brian, the story of patents, especially foreign ones, seems rather murky. But you'd think that large British gunmakers would have respected each others' intellectual property enough to stop one tooling up for a gun that breached another's patent, wouldn't you? Could they have licensed the design - getting Webley's permission to make a gun based on its patent?

Hi Danny,

I really struggle to understand why such a highly respected gun maker as Cogswell & Harrison would lend their name to such a poorly conceived design as the Certus. Iv'e often compared it to something Wallace & Grommit might have come up with had they been Cogswell & Harrison employees at the time. Although Webley had the forethought to include the reversed cocking lever direction in their patent, they quickly dismissed it as being impractical. I'm not so surprised at Westley Richards collaborating with Anson to produce some of his designs give their innovative and well thought out qualities. Having said all that, I do own a Certus myself as it represents part of the story, albeit a rather unsuccessful one.

Brian

[ccdjg]

The German Record Champion, the last repeating spring air pistol to be introduced, is a more recent example of a short-lived design:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/68145...23341/Champion

Although a lot of effort and financial investment must have gone into its design, it was never going to be a winner. The unreliability of the feed mechanism combined with the inconvenient procedure for removing pellet jams made it very unpopular, exacerbated by the fact that the pistol couldn't be used in single shot mode if one wanted to abandon the repeater unit. Its short production run means that examples are hard to find, and so are very collectable. I suppose this is going to be true for all these 'one minute wonder' airguns, whatever their shortcomings.

[The Zenit M repeater pistol was different, in that it could be used in single shot mode if the magazine was broken. As a result it was quite successful, even though it was prone to jamming and the magazine feed was easily fractured (it was cast from brittle alloy) . You are much more likely to find a Zenit M with the repeater mechanism missing than a complete gun, as when broken they were still usable and so were rarely scrapped.]

[45flint]

The German Record Champion, the last repeating spring air pistol to be introduced, is a more recent example of a short-lived design:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/68145...23341/Champion

Although a lot of effort and financial investment must have gone into its design, it was never going to be a winner. The unreliability of the feed mechanism combined with the inconvenient procedure for removing pellet jams made it very unpopular, exacerbated by the fact that the pistol couldn't be used in single shot mode if one wanted to abandon the repeater unit. Its short production run means that examples are hard to find, and so are very collectable. I suppose this is going to be true for all these 'one minute wonder' airguns, whatever their shortcomings.

[The Zenit M repeater pistol was different, in that it could be used in single shot mode if the magazine was broken. As a result it was quite successful, even though it was prone to jamming and the magazine feed was easily fractured (it was cast from brittle alloy) . You are much more likely to find a Zenit M with the repeater mechanism missing than a complete gun, as when broken they were still usable and so were rarely scrapped.]

A repeating mechanism seemed hard to pull off. Probably limited the sales of the Haenel 28-R. Though cleverly made, it had similar issues of not being able to easily used as single pellet shooter and not very pellet friendly. Only 3000 made.

[lodmoor]

The Haenel 28-R does not take pellets, it takes balls slightly smaller than the standard .177/4.5mm. Unfortunately users load it with pellets hence the jams.

[45flint]

The Haenel 28-R does not take pellets, it takes balls slightly smaller than the standard .177/4.5mm. Unfortunately users load it with pellets hence the jams.

I agree that round balls are the only modern pellets that work today but I've seen pellets back in the Haenel's time frame that were more like shorter round barrels. Not sure they were designed for just round ammo but agree it's probably the only modern choice? On another forum there was a collector that had several boxed examples pictured in box are pellets.

[Garvin]

I agree that round balls are the only modern pellets that work today but I've seen pellets back in the Haenel's time frame that were more like shorter round barrels. Not sure they were designed for just round ammo but agree it's probably the only modern choice? On another forum there was a collector that had several boxed examples pictured in box are pellets.

Do you mean slugs, Steve?