Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 49

Thread: Repro pellet boxes and tins

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    City of London
    Posts
    9,736

    Repro pellet boxes and tins

    There's a guy on the auction site selling repro BSA pellet boxes from the pre-WW1 era (and various pellet tins). For the boxes he's scanned and printed the panels and stuck them on the sides and top/bottom of new boxes about the same size as the original, and sells them flat, unfolded, to keep the cost down.

    They don't look too bad (though not great either) and at £4.50 will set you back at least a couple of hundred quid less than buying an original - if you can find one! I'd say the seller hasn't been greedy when it comes to pricing, but neither are they proper facsimiles - more like crude approximations of the originals.

    In a way it's surprising that nobody has done this before, or that more people aren't doing it to a high standard. The original artwork is so attractive, well out of copyright, and the cost of reproducing it must be pretty low with today's technology.

    It's only a shame it hasn't been done better, like the excellent Webley pistol boxes available now. I would happily pay, say, £15 for a decent reproduction of the original pllet box - one where it wasn't immediately obvious it was a reproduction.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    8,558
    Fakes all over the bay at the moment Not just Trump upset

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Winchester, UK
    Posts
    15,344
    Anything that is too accurate will totally queer the market as far as collecting goes.
    Those of us who have been collecting for a while should be able to spot a fake quite easily, but new collectors could quite easily be fooled. The 'Repro' Webley boxes currently on offer are a prime example, as no attempt has been made to distinguish them from the original, and I've been told of one long time collector who was actually taken in by one, so what chance does the less experienced collector have.
    When I was making and selling 'repro' Webley pistol boxes and selling them for the same price as those currently on offer at a well known south coast store, I made sure they were easily distinguishable from the real thing, whilst still making the labelling as realistic as possible, but they could not be mistaken for an original by anyone apart from possibly a novice collector, but any collector should study his collecting interests before plunging into the market.
    I have only replicated one cardboard Webley pellet box, the .25, and externally it is as near to the original as it was possible to get, but internally, anyone opening the box would see that most, and any future boxes, are made from a Kellogs serial box, and there aren't many of them in existence at present.
    I did replicate another box from another maker for a friend as an experiment, using old advertising drawings, colouring guess work and measurements from other similar period boxes, but as no one that we know of has ever seen an original, it's going to be difficult to compare, and as he has the only ones apart from myself, it's not likely to get onto the market. As he said to me, it looks to new to be mistaken as having been made in the relevant period, and of course they didn't have laser or inkjet printers.
    Last edited by Troubledshooter; 31-03-2017 at 01:39 PM. Reason: Additional information.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Hereford
    Posts
    394
    Quote Originally Posted by Troubledshooter View Post
    ... those currently on offer at a well known south coast store....
    Oh, you must mean Protek Supplies.

    http://www.proteksupplies.co.uk/anti...pistols-1.html

    They do some repro pellet boxes too don't they?

  5. #5
    harvey_s's Avatar
    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Norwich
    Posts
    9,320
    Quote Originally Posted by Troubledshooter View Post
    Anything that is too accurate will totally queer the market as far as collecting goes.
    Those of us who have been collecting for a while should be able to spot a fake quite easily, but new collectors could quite easily be fooled. The 'Repro' Webley boxes currently on offer are a prime example, as no attempt has been made to distinguish them from the original, and I've been told of one long time collector who was actually taken in by one, so what chance does the less experienced collector have.
    When I was making and selling 'repro' Webley pistol boxes and selling them for the same price as those currently on offer at a well known south coast store, I made sure they were easily distinguishable from the real thing, whilst still making the labelling as realistic as possible, but they could not be mistaken for an original by anyone apart from possibly a novice collector, but any collector should study his collecting interests before plunging into the market.
    I have only replicated one cardboard Webley pellet box, the .25, and externally it is as near to the original as it was possible to get, but internally, anyone opening the box would see it is made from a Kellogs serial box, and there aren't many of them in existence at present.
    I did replicate another box from another maker for a friend as an experiment, using old advertising drawings, colouring guess work and measurements from other similar period boxes, but as no one that we know of has ever seen an original, it's going to be difficult to compare, and as he has the only ones apart from myself, it's not likely to get onto the market. As he said to me, it looks to new to be mistaken as having been made in the relevant period, and of course they didn't have laser or inkjet printers.
    /\ /\ /\.....This is bang on.

    'Reproduction' is often misused word these days and usually to legitimise out and out fakery.
    Protek's boxes being a perfect example.

  6. #6
    micky2 is offline The collector formerly known as micky
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    boston
    Posts
    2,142
    The thing is with good repo boxes is that they can be made to look old/aged by someone who is then trying to pass them off as original.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    City of London
    Posts
    9,736
    OK, I take the point that having realistic copies on the market increases the chances of fakery and passing off by the unscrupulous, but on balance I think it's better to have good facsimiles out there than not. Many a Webley pistol has been enhanced by the 'new' old boxes and it can only help improve pride of ownership to be able to buy one. It doesn't make the genuine article any the less desirable, surely?

    Of course, all honourable reproducers of airgun memorabilia should add a sign to alert collectors they are dealing with a copy, or even incorporate the word 'facsimile' unobtrusively into the design - maybe inside a pellet box? But the world being what it is, there will always be fakers looking to deceive and collectors of the genuine should be cautious with their money, as always.

    I'm thinking of the little Frank Morton Webley Service booklets, which were realistically reproduced some years ago. It's long enough ago that some of these have aged and are dog-eared, making them look like originals. But real collectors would know. I have one and it's probably the closest I'll ever get to an original.

    Protek also reproduced one of the BSA manuals IIRC.

    In the rare books market print 'on demand' has given cheap access to knowledge previously only possible by visiting a library in person. I think technology is generally a good thing, despite its having a 'dark side'.

    Here is a pic of some good repro pllet boxes made by a fellow collector.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Winchester, UK
    Posts
    15,344
    Protek also reproduced one of the BSA manuals IIRC.
    As far as I am aware, they were produced by the same person as the 'Morton' booklet and in a similar period, unless someone has gone to the trouble of organising and setting up another printing.

  9. #9
    harvey_s's Avatar
    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Norwich
    Posts
    9,320
    I struggle with the ephemera & accessory side of airgun collection - but can see that some pure collectors would like it and it's nice to see it retained for future generations.
    But I really do not get the whole reproduction airgun memorabilia thing...it's not original, so what's the point

  10. #10
    ccdjg is online now Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    2,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post

    Here is a pic of some good repro pllet boxes made by a fellow collector.

    Oh dear. I have some of those boxes, which I have picked up over the past few years, and now I won't be able to look at them in the same way. How many of these replicas did he actually make, and did any find their way onto the market?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    City of London
    Posts
    9,736
    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    Oh dear. I have some of those boxes, which I have picked up over the past few years, and now I won't be able to look at them in the same way. How many of these replicas did he actually make, and did any find their way onto the market?
    Apparently these boxes are marked (one is a complete fake - no prizes for guessing which!) so you can tell them apart from the original, and he assures me there was no intent to deceive...

    I'm curious, John - presumably you made your fantastic reproduction bellows pistol because it was highly unlikely you would ever find, or be able to afford, an original one? Is that so different from re-making ultra-rare pellet boxes, as long as you make no effort to pass them off as original?

    I ask this slightly tongue-in-cheek, as someone who like other collectors would always greatly prefer to own an original rather than a replica. But if there's almost zero chance that's going to happen, a really good facsimile is a bit better than nothing, isn't it?
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  12. #12
    ccdjg is online now Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    2,039
    Thanks Danny, that comes as something of a relief.

    Of course, I think it is perfectly OK for collectors to make their own replicas of rare items, but only as long as they mark them in some way so that they can be easily identified as replicas.

    I do this with my own guns by etching them with their provenance in a concealed but easily accessed place. For example, my Whiting copy is etched on the frame under the grip plates as here

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Winchester, UK
    Posts
    15,344
    In my opinion, one of the best replicas I did was the Webley clock, and as far as I know there is only one known original example, so I had no hesitation in making a replica as near to the original as possible using modern materials.
    The original had an etched glass facia and a mains operated mechanism, but my replica was made using a reproduction printed clock facia sandwiched between two layers of Perspex, with a battery operated mechanism mounted through the Perspex, with two versions that could either be wall or table mounted, and could either have sweep or incremental second hand.
    I did initially sell a few but the demand was not as high as I had expected, so I still have the materials to make a few more.

  14. #14
    micky2 is offline The collector formerly known as micky
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    boston
    Posts
    2,142
    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    OK, I take the point that having realistic copies on the market increases the chances of fakery and passing off by the unscrupulous, but on balance I think it's better to have good facsimiles out there than not. Many a Webley pistol has been enhanced by the 'new' old boxes and it can only help improve pride of ownership to be able to buy one. It doesn't make the genuine article any the less desirable, surely?

    Of course, all honourable reproducers of airgun memorabilia should add a sign to alert collectors they are dealing with a copy, or even incorporate the word 'facsimile' unobtrusively into the design - maybe inside a pellet box? But the world being what it is, there will always be fakers looking to deceive and collectors of the genuine should be cautious with their money, as always.

    I'm thinking of the little Frank Morton Webley Service booklets, which were realistically reproduced some years ago. It's long enough ago that some of these have aged and are dog-eared, making them look like originals. But real collectors would know. I have one and it's probably the closest I'll ever get to an original.

    Protek also reproduced one of the BSA manuals IIRC.

    In the rare books market print 'on demand' has given cheap access to knowledge previously only possible by visiting a library in person. I think technology is generally a good thing, despite its having a 'dark side'.

    Here is a pic of some good repro pllet boxes made by a fellow collector.
    Hi Danny, those pellet boxes look really good and would fool some people. the Morton booklets that Dennis did where very good indeed and some have been passed off as original, l don't know if they said it was a reprint or facsimile, as l sold mine so l can't check. when l got a copy of what l belive is a genuine copy which came in a boxed Service. but in his The Complete Air-Gunner reprints Dennis to his credit. it did say second edition 1984 and third 1992.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Moreton in Marsh
    Posts
    816
    Quote Originally Posted by Troubledshooter View Post
    In my opinion, one of the best replicas I did was the Webley clock, and as far as I know there is only one known original example, so I had no hesitation in making a replica as near to the original as possible using modern materials.
    The original had an etched glass facia and a mains operated mechanism, but my replica was made using a reproduction printed clock facia sandwiched between two layers of Perspex, with a battery operated mechanism mounted through the Perspex, with two versions that could either be wall or table mounted, and could either have sweep or incremental second hand.
    I did initially sell a few but the demand was not as high as I had expected, so I still have the materials to make a few more.
    I have one of your fine clocks in my study ;-)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •