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Thread: Repro pellet boxes and tins

  1. #16
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    I have to admit at being slightly irked by the fake pellets tins and boxes on t'bay. Whenever I carry out a search on collectable pellets, a plethora of fakes is included. They are so wide of the mark as far as authenticity is concerned, I really can't see the point of them from a collector's perspective.

    The repro Morton books are a useful reference as the information they contain remains relevant. It would have been good if they had been marked in some way as the printing quality is excellent. So much so that I am wary of any 6th edition that is offered as an original. You really need to have an original to hand for comparison if offered a 6th edition purported to be original.

    Two of the best reproduction items I have seen are a couple of 1950s BSA leaflets I recently acquired through a member on here. The printing quality is professional and hard to tell from the originals but the bottom of one page is unobtrusively marked reproduction with the year of printing.

    Oh and another vote for Troubledhooter's clocks. A lovely item for the gunroom or bedroom in my instance!

    John

  2. #17
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    This thread has made me question whether I want replicas of any sort anywhere near my collection!

    I’ve found that I can easily tolerate repro brochures and printed things - Giffard, Webley, BSA, Crosman literature etc - because they are interesting reads.

    I don’t really collect pellet packaging, except by accident, so I’m not interested in replica boxes, despite what I said earlier.

    I probably wouldn’t bother with a replica Webley oil can unless it was the only thing missing to complete a set. I certainly wouldn’t spend hundreds on an original.

    My unboxed Webley pistols will stay unboxed, however perfect the replica boxes are.

    Thinking about the subject properly, I realise that authenticity is a key part of what makes me a collector. I half expected my Walther LP52 pistol to be a fake before it arrived, but on seeing it felt immediately it was genuine (as did the other collectors who have seen it in the flesh). So I kept it, but would have quickly got rid of it if not.

    Generally I think that if the money is tempting enough then conmen will always try to diddle people out of it, sadly. In the long run, increasingly facsimiles will be sold as originals even if it means obliterating the word "replica", or filing off the word "reproduction".

    My Morton booklet is too fresh and shiny to appear original now, but in 30 years it won’t be. Lesson: as John says, beware of 6th edition Mortons!

    It’s a case of caveat emptor and the ‘experts’ will have the final word on what’s genuine or not, just like they do in the art world, where the difference between fake paintings and genuine ones can be millions.

    There’s a strong human tendency to believe that what you have is genuine - ie. a factory variant - (read John Atkins’ AG article on broken lugs on Webley ‘spring clip’ Mk1s) rather than the work of a random gunsmith.

    This means owners will always be the last people capable of making unbiased decisions on authenticity (ie. my LP52!).

    It also means that the line between ‘passing off’ and ‘good faith’ is blurred, because for every seller trying to dupe you with a fake, there will be another seller who is an honest, earnest believer.

    Finally, I share everyone else’s horror at the thought of facsimiles that don’t declare themselves openly for what they are. Anyone who makes something hoping to sell it ‘under the radar’ is no better than a thief.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  3. #18
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    repro pellet and air ammo boxes

    I'm fortunate in that most of the rare and colorful old pellet boxes in my collection have been acquired way back...at least several decades ago...long before the advent of the sinister laser jet printer which can now raise negative concerns amongst us collectors.

    http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...m.jpg~original

    Larry

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by leh22 View Post
    I'm fortunate in that most of the rare and colorful old pellet boxes in my collection have been acquired way back...at least several decades ago...long before the advent of the sinister laser jet printer which can now raise negative concerns amongst us collectors.

    http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...m.jpg~original

    Larry
    That lot must be worth about 20,000 dollars at today's prices, Larry.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by leh22 View Post
    I'm fortunate in that most of the rare and colorful old pellet boxes in my collection have been acquired way back...at least several decades ago...long before the advent of the sinister laser jet printer which can now raise negative concerns amongst us collectors.

    http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...m.jpg~original

    Larry
    Impressive collection of pellets.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    That lot must be worth about 20,000 dollars at today's prices, Larry.
    You're scaring me with those numbers, Danny! I'd rather not even think about how much money I've sunk into this incurable pneumatic obsession.

    ...oh,well...off to another airgun show in Ohio this weekend. (I'll never learn!)

    Larry

  7. #22
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    The replica that should adorn every gun room is ,the Webley Clock

    A modern replica sure-but it is pretty and functional.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by micky2 View Post
    Hi Danny, those pellet boxes look really good and would fool some people. the Morton booklets that Dennis did where very good indeed and some have been passed off as original, l don't know if they said it was a reprint or facsimile, as l sold mine so l can't check. when l got a copy of what l belive is a genuine copy which came in a boxed Service. but in his The Complete Air-Gunner reprints Dennis to his credit. it did say second edition 1984 and third 1992.
    I wasn't aware Dennis ever made any replica copies of Morton's booklet; they were produced by another BBS member some years ago, along with some replica BSA booklets as well.
    As I've pointed out previously, all the replica sixth edition Morton booklets have the same cover pattern, whereas the originals would have different patterns.

    Here's a scan of the covers: http://mynetimages.com/album/Trouble...img=3ce5d93d53

  9. #24
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    Founder & ex secretary of Rivington Riflemen.
    www.rivington-riflemen.uk

  10. #25
    micky2 is offline The collector formerly known as micky
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troubledshooter View Post
    I wasn't aware Dennis ever made any replica copies of Morton's booklet; they were produced by another BBS member some years ago, along with some replica BSA booklets as well.
    As I've pointed out previously, all the replica sixth edition Morton booklets have the same cover pattern, whereas the originals would have different patterns.

    Here's a scan of the covers: http://mynetimages.com/album/Trouble...img=3ce5d93d53
    The thing is that if you have never seen one, you wouldn't know if it was real or a copy. it's fine if you have an original to compare it with. l don't know if Dennis had them made or not, but l bought mine off him a long long time ago. l sold it has a copy because that is what Dennis was selling them has at the time. the edition that came with my boxed Service which l belive is original is a 8th edition with a different colour on the front and dated September 1938. but thank you for showing the 2 copies together.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by micky2 View Post
    The thing is that if you have never seen one, you wouldn't know if it was real or a copy. it's fine if you have an original to compare it with. l don't know if Dennis had them made or not, but l bought mine off him a long long time ago. l sold it has a copy because that is what Dennis was selling them has at the time. the edition that came with my boxed Service which l belive is original is a 8th edition with a different colour on the front and dated September 1938. but thank you for showing the 2 copies together.

    As you say, a newcomer to collecting could quite easily be fooled if they've never seen an original 6th.edition.
    As far as I am aware, the sixth edition is the only version to have been replicated in the eighties, and all the other original editions had different colours and patterns on the covers. I've shown some of them on my site.

  12. #27
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    A few years ago some Senior and Mk.1 pistols were re-chromed and nickel plated, and of course ultimately passed off as original once ownership had been transferred through two or three pairs of hands.
    How many have such, thinking one the cream of their collection when in fact it is probably worth less than the standard blued item?

    In my opinion the less 'repro' there is of anything the better, as the scope for confusion, disappointment and fraud as the years go by is too large.
    Also how much satisfaction is there really in having something you know to be a copy, even if it was cheap?
    The whole point of collecting is the pleasure in finding genuine artefacts, to enhance a collection?
    I would rather go without, maybe for ever, than have something that was made two weeks ago on a laser printer - ugh!

  13. #28
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    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
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    I do feel that someone new to airgun accessory and ephemera collection is at much more of a disadvantage these days than people who started many years ago due to the number of 'reproduction' items out there.
    Even some items that have been reproduced with very minor 'clues' as to the fact they are repro's would be difficult to spot by the untrained and very well researched eye and even less so if you are not a member of this forum!

    Ironically it is collectors that are usually responsible - as they are the ones aware of the rarity and value of such repro's and are in possession of originals to copy.

    Whilst I am not accusing anyone here of deliberately setting out to deceive - I DO think that reproduction items should be clearly marked (albeit discretely) that they are reproductions.
    When the first buyer buys a reproduction item from the maker - he probably knows exactly what he's buying - what possible reason could there be for denying the next buyer the same opportunity?

    Without this the market is open to unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of those new to collecting which is just unfair.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by slug-gun View Post
    A few years ago some Senior and Mk.1 pistols were re-chromed and nickel plated, and of course ultimately passed off as original once ownership had been transferred through two or three pairs of hands.
    How many have such, thinking one the cream of their collection when in fact it is probably worth less than the standard blued item?

    In my opinion the less 'repro' there is of anything the better, as the scope for confusion, disappointment and fraud as the years go by is too large.
    Also how much satisfaction is there really in having something you know to be a copy, even if it was cheap?
    The whole point of collecting is the pleasure in finding genuine artefacts, to enhance a collection?
    I would rather go without, maybe for ever, than have something that was made two weeks ago on a laser printer - ugh!
    I couldn't agree more.

    John

  15. #30
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    What an interesting thread! Worthy of the Moral Maze. (As a devout Radio 4 listener I have no higher praise).

    I make no apologies for reviving it. I just can't understand how I missed it back in March 2017. I must have because I could not have resisted having my say. I found it just now, totally by accident, having just put Replica Webley boxes into Search. I did not realise that Troubledshooter had stopped producing such things and thought he might have been interested in either an Acvoke or a Warrior box to reproduce. I'd sourced one of each in New Zealand, complete with pistol and thought he might have been interested, with no expectations of anybody being misled. That was perhaps naive of me as I tend to be pretty cynical.

    I now find me doubting my own intentions ( a rarity in it's own right !), largely due to Danny's (Garvin's) arguments against replicas.

    Oddly enough I get sort-of replicas made of wing mirror arms to fit J type Bedfords to take to NZ. The Kiwis tend to scorn wing mirrors. Or possibly the originals have long since failed to be adjusted and have sheered off. As the host trucks were expected to last 10 years and the last are now at least 45 not that many have survived. My versions are made of stainless steel so they never seize the way the originals did (mild steel in close proximity to cast steel, exposed to the elements for a lifetime ). They add an element of bling or can be painted for the factory finish. My conscience is perfectly clear in that context but I'll have to give a bit more thought to the rest of it.

    I'll let the effects of tonight's bottle of Sambucca ( surprise Xmas present ) wear off before I give serious thought to the earlier part of the thread. With hindsight have any of you revised your earlier opinions.

    Looking forwards to any comments, Mick
    When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .

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