New British Made Air Rifle

[Geezer]

Is it really a match grade trigger??

Pete

Of course it isn't.

[VALE BOY]

With regard to safety catch mechanisms I quite like the one on my Theoben Fenman which has been described previously but I also like the pop out-push in type as fitted to the Haenel 302, HW25 etc which is very easily operated by either thumb, whichever hand has the trigger finger on .. So like the Fenman, it is ambidextrous, as is the thumb type fitted to Diana 52's and other Diana springer models.


Concerning the matter of a new British break-barrel......

I think it must be extremely difficult for any manufacturer, irrespective of national origin to design and develop, market and subsequently sell a 'new' air rifle of any power-plant type due to costs involved and how it can be recouped from potential sales from what I consider to be sadly, a dwindling market.

How many young people under the age of 20 are taking up the sport or have the desire or inclination to purchase and shoot an air rifle nowadays, particularly when you take into account ever-increasing restrictive legislation, social attitudes towards guns and shooting in general and also the way more sophisticated technology with people using computers, laptops, iPads, X-boxes, smartphones etc and the way they dictate so many folks ( especially young folk) recreational time and their lives in general.

Airgun shooters of an older generation or dare I say it, of more mature years, had the benefit of more opportunities to be aware of air rifles and pistols, thanks to adverts in publications ranging from comics and magazines and family mail-order catalogues, all of which were evident in many family homes.
Shooting was readily available on farmland, open countryside, disused industrial premises,back gardens etc.. usually without restrictions.
In addition for those folk growing up in the 50's and 60's, there was the 'toy-gun culture' sparked off by the plethora of cowboy programmes or 'Westerns' as the were called, on the telly.
Between the BBC and ITV there must have been in the region of a dozen of more of these type of programmes broadcast weekly and having a huge influence on mainly young boys but girls also, resulting in huge sales of cap guns each Christmas and kids birthdays as well. The natural progression to go from a cap gun to and air pistol and rifle was commonplace and easy to do , as lots of toy-shops, sportshops, Ironmongers even bicycle shops and sometimes Gents barbershops would have a selection of Airguns, pellets and accessories for sale.. Sadly no longer the case.

I don't like to be pessimistic, but realistically, is there a potential market out there ( certainly in Britain) to make it justifiably financially viable to pursue new innovations in what looks to be, on the face of it, an older generation target group?
The hard facts are, it takes prospective economic projections linked to subsequent realistically attainable sales figures to merit such industrial endeavours.... Unless some billionaire, who is into Airguns by chance, who has money to spare to indulge a whim, like Lord Hesketh, 30 years ago with the Hesketh motorcycle... and sadly even that wasn't sustained.

I think many of us on the Forum and elsewhere who fall onto the 40-80 age range have been really fortunate to have lived there lives in such an innovative and varied production industrial period where we've benefited from choice and availability in a social atmosphere which has been relatively relaxed, not just concerning Airguns but many other aspects of life in general.....











Having said all that... C'mon Air Arms how about a nice medium weight break-barrell with a smooth trigger and power delivery with open sights and scope rail, shooting about 11fpe and under 300 quid... It might just get the sales!! ��

[Geezer]

With regard to safety catch mechanisms I quite like the one on my Theoben Fenman which has been described previously but I also like the pop out-push in type as fitted to the Haenel 302, HW25 etc which is very easily operated by either thumb, whichever hand has the trigger finger on .. So like the Fenman, it is ambidextrous, as is the thumb type fitted to Diana 52's and other Diana springer models.


Concerning the matter of a new British break-barrel......

I think it must be extremely difficult for any manufacturer, irrespective of national origin to design and develop, market and subsequently sell a 'new' air rifle of any power-plant type due to costs involved and how it can be recouped from potential sales from what I consider to be sadly, a dwindling market.

How many young people under the age of 20 are taking up the sport or have the desire or inclination to purchase and shoot an air rifle nowadays, particularly when you take into account ever-increasing restrictive legislation, social attitudes towards guns and shooting in general and also the way more sophisticated technology with people using computers, laptops, iPads, X-boxes, smartphones etc and the way they dictate so many folks ( especially young folk) recreational time and their lives in general.

Airgun shooters of an older generation or dare I say it, of more mature years, had the benefit of more opportunities to be aware of air rifles and pistols, thanks to adverts in publications ranging from comics and magazines and family mail-order catalogues, all of which were evident in many family homes.
Shooting was readily available on farmland, open countryside, disused industrial premises,back gardens etc.. usually without restrictions.
In addition for those folk growing up in the 50's and 60's, there was the 'toy-gun culture' sparked off by the plethora of cowboy programmes or 'Westerns' as the were called, on the telly.
Between the BBC and ITV there must have been in the region of a dozen of more of these type of programmes broadcast weekly and having a huge influence on mainly young boys but girls also, resulting in huge sales of cap guns each Christmas and kids birthdays as well. The natural progression to go from a cap gun to and air pistol and rifle was commonplace and easy to do , as lots of toy-shops, sportshops, Ironmongers even bicycle shops and sometimes Gents barbershops would have a selection of Airguns, pellets and accessories for sale.. Sadly no longer the case.

I don't like to be pessimistic, but realistically, is there a potential market out there ( certainly in Britain) to make it justifiably financially viable to pursue new innovations in what looks to be, on the face of it, an older generation target group?

A big bit of the mid and upper end of the market is not selling guns to teenagers and newbies, but selling more guns to people who already own guns. That's - I think - how Daystate stay in business.

[bighit]

when I used to buy an off road bike magazine (TBM - trail bike magazine ) they did a chart showing the different bike variations and showed how what quantity of each variation had sold in the past month and another chart showing what brand of trail bikes had sold in that past month.


any way of finding out how many rifles are sold in any month and in what variation I.e Springer sold 500 ,pcp sold 1.000

daystate 100, air arms 200 and so on.

obviously it would not count used rifles sold via this forum or through free ads .

paul

[VALE BOY]

A big bit of the mid and upper end of the market is not selling guns to teenagers and newbies, but selling more guns to people who already own guns. That's - I think - how Daystate stay in business.

Very true Geezer.. Daystate and some other manufacturers, probably mainly Weihrauch and Air Arms do have a niche market for some of their products.
However due to some of the factors I mentioned in my original post regarding social acceptability of shooting, less sales outlets, fewer gunshops and definitely fewer outlets of the kind that were previously in most towns and in some cases villages as well, and serious shooters being probably a declining purchasing market force I wonder if there is a business-like incentive for a British manufacturer to feel encouraged to produce a new product.
I guess for any industry to survive it needs to attract a younger purchasing population which would evolve into a potential market for more sophisticated products whether it's Airguns, Sports equipment, Audio gear of whatever and developing brand loyalty and future sales.

I hope I'm wrong as it is always good to see an established industry still up for innovative production.

[TonyL]

Concerning the matter of a new British break-barrel......

I think it must be extremely difficult for any manufacturer, irrespective of national origin to design and develop, market and subsequently sell a 'new' air rifle of any power-plant type due to costs involved and how it can be recouped from potential sales from what I consider to be sadly, a dwindling market.

How many young people under the age of 20 are taking up the sport or have the desire or inclination to purchase and shoot an air rifle nowadays, particularly when you take into account ever-increasing restrictive legislation, social attitudes towards guns and shooting in general and also the way more sophisticated technology with people using computers, laptops, iPads, X-boxes, smartphones etc and the way they dictate so many folks ( especially young folk) recreational time and their lives in general.

Airgun shooters of an older generation or dare I say it, of more mature years, had the benefit of more opportunities to be aware of air rifles and pistols, thanks to adverts in publications ranging from comics and magazines and family mail-order catalogues, all of which were evident in many family homes.
Shooting was readily available on farmland, open countryside, disused industrial premises,back gardens etc.. usually without restrictions.
In addition for those folk growing up in the 50's and 60's, there was the 'toy-gun culture' sparked off by the plethora of cowboy programmes or 'Westerns' as the were called, on the telly.
Between the BBC and ITV there must have been in the region of a dozen of more of these type of programmes broadcast weekly and having a huge influence on mainly young boys but girls also, resulting in huge sales of cap guns each Christmas and kids birthdays as well. The natural progression to go from a cap gun to and air pistol and rifle was commonplace and easy to do , as lots of toy-shops, sportshops, Ironmongers even bicycle shops and sometimes Gents barbershops would have a selection of Airguns, pellets and accessories for sale.. Sadly no longer the case.

I don't like to be pessimistic, but realistically, is there a potential market out there ( certainly in Britain) to make it justifiably financially viable to pursue new innovations in what looks to be, on the face of it, an older generation target group?
The hard facts are, it takes prospective economic projections linked to subsequent realistically attainable sales figures to merit such industrial endeavours.... Unless some billionaire, who is into Airguns by chance, who has money to spare to indulge a whim, like Lord Hesketh, 30 years ago with the Hesketh motorcycle... and sadly even that wasn't sustained.

I think many of us on the Forum and elsewhere who fall onto the 40-80 age range have been really fortunate to have lived there lives in such an innovative and varied production industrial period where we've benefited from choice and availability in a social atmosphere which has been relatively relaxed, not just concerning Airguns but many other aspects of life in general.....

�

So many valid observations here, Graeme.

When I think back to my youth, you would see Airguns advertised in the Exchange and Mart in addition to the mail order catalogues. Also, even in a very small town like mine, you could buy Airguns in fishing tackle shops, a couple of sports shops and even Milbro Dianas in the toy / sports department of our local Co-Op store.


I don't know how big the US market is, but my guess would be that, for a new rifle to be properly viable, it's the American market that would have to be key. And much of that market seems to be hung up on big fps figures. So this might entail a "magnum" type rifle which would then have to be sleeved down / reduced stroke for our market if it were to exhibit nicer shooting manners.

[Geezer]

So many valid observations here, Graeme.

When I think back to my youth, you would see Airguns advertised in the Exchange and Mart in addition to the mail order catalogues. Also, even in a very small town like mine, you could buy Airguns in fishing tackle shops, a couple of sports shops and even Milbro Dianas in the toy / sports department of our local Co-Op store.


I don't know how big the US market is, but my guess would be that, for a new rifle to be properly viable, it's the American market that would have to be key. And much of that market seems to be hung up on big fps figures. So this might entail a "magnum" type rifle which would then have to be sleeved down / reduced stroke for our market if it were to exhibit nicer shooting manners.

Spot on.

So, if you were AA, that would mean you'd make a really powerful super-springer. And a break-barrel, because Americans never took to underlevers (because the 77 was less powerful than the 80), and because Diana had sewn up the powerful sidelever market with the 48/52. But, yes, a really powerful b/b, better than an 80, like an 80 on steroids, that would sell loads in the States.

Which just goes to show that you can do the best market research ever, but sometimes the market does not do what your research said it would.

[look no hands]

Spot on.

So, if you were AA, that would mean you'd make a really powerful super-springer. And a break-barrel, because Americans never took to underlevers (because the 77 was less powerful than the 80). But, yes, a really powerful b/b, better than an 80, like an 80 on steroids, that would sell loads in the States.

Which just goes to show that you can do the best market research ever, but sometimes the market does not do what your research said it would.

That'll be the AA Pro Elite then

Pete

[look no hands]

I don't know how big the US market is, but my guess would be that, for a new rifle to be properly viable, it's the American market that would have to be key. And much of that market seems to be hung up on big fps figures. So this might entail a "magnum" type rifle which would then have to be sleeved down / reduced stroke for our market if it were to exhibit nicer shooting manners.

But then it won't be the light/mediumweight HW99 killer we all want, as most "magnum" rifles I know are long, heavy, cumbersome or ugly.

So basically what we need to do to achieve this goal is to convert an existing british made break barrel into the superduper rifle we've all been asking for.....but what rifle?

Pete

[bighit]

did the theoben eliminator or webley patriot sell well in the US? I'm sure they both had more power than the HW80 . but it could then come down to cost. given how easy it is for the shooters in the US to buy a .22lr they may have gone with the cheaper of the higher power break barrel airguns as they could be classed as "toys" compared to the .22lr.

as far as I know the eliminator only had a different piston (stroke I think) to the evolution (i might be wrong) if it is then there is only going to have to be 2 different pistons in relation to a higher power rifle for the US buyers and the 12ftlbs and lower countries.

no sleaving or other major works to change powers for other countries.

[look no hands]

as far as I know the eliminator only had a different piston (stroke I think) to the evolution (i might be wrong) if it is then there is only going to have to be 2 different pistons in relation to a higher power rifle for the US buyers and the 12ftlbs and lower countries.

no sleaving or other major works to change powers for other countries.

Theobens are not 25mm bore though, so would easily make higher power with the right parts inside.

I think the problem that may arise is that in "BBS land" we want it too have a 25mm (or less) bore as that seems to be the optimum "standardised" size for a nicer firing cycle, now whether the company who decides to make it is happy to go with that bore size is another matter, now I'm not that clued up (but I'm sure someone will enlighten me) if a 25mm bore rifle can make 20 foot pounds of power (to keep the yanks happy) without having a massively long cylinder to help with the stroking, I know my Prosport was once kicking out nearly 14ftp on initial fire up after a tune (which may I add was reduced to the legal limit) and that is 25mm and not that long a compression cylinder, so I suppose it could be done?

I suppose we're all hoping Air Arms would make this rifle as they seem to favour 25mm (I know the Pro Elite wasn't) but are any makers willing to listen to the rantings of a few "shed tuners" and forum members? we all know that BSA don't listen to John Bowkett and we also know that Webley wouldn't listen to Venom either, so what's the chances of us getting the rifle we desire in the spec we require? now say AA did give in and produce a break barrel but it had hardly any of the specs we all know to be good and cuddly (so they knew they had a chance of selling a few to the U.S.), would you still buy it, even if it had a hinge bolt and a decent trigger but it's internals were all to pot, yes they may be nicely finished internals but if it was no better inside than a BSA Lightning's spec, then would you be happy to part with £500ish because it's a new British B/B rifle made by AA.

Pete

[TonyL]

Some excellent points there, Pete.

And someone would have to do the maths to give us a clear answer, but we'd be looking at a very long stroke / cylinder to produce 20ft.lbs for the US.

The easiest compromise would be a larger bore gun, along the lines of the HW80, Pro Elite and others. Maybe settle on, say, 28mm bore? Full power versions with shorter latch rod (and heavier piston) and lighter piston with longer rod for us? After all, short stroked 80s do shoot very nicely indeed.

Some fine chap mentioned the Venom inspired Webleys up above and these were probably close to the mark?

[TonyL]

did the theoben eliminator or webley patriot sell well in the US? I'm sure they both had more power than the HW80 . but it could then come down to cost. given how easy it is for the shooters in the US to buy a .22lr they may have gone with the cheaper of the higher power break barrel airguns as they could be classed as "toys" compared to the .22lr.

as far as I know the eliminator only had a different piston (stroke I think) to the evolution (i might be wrong) if it is then there is only going to have to be 2 different pistons in relation to a higher power rifle for the US buyers and the 12ftlbs and lower countries.

no sleaving or other major works to change powers for other countries.

Again, some very good points there.

[Barryg]

Spot on.

So, if you were AA, that would mean you'd make a really powerful super-springer. And a break-barrel, because Americans never took to underlevers (because the 77 was less powerful than the 80), and because Diana had sewn up the powerful sidelever market with the 48/52. But, yes, a really powerful b/b, better than an 80, like an 80 on steroids, that would sell loads in the States.

Which just goes to show that you can do the best market research ever, but sometimes the market does not do what your research said it would.

DIana not only has the magnum side lever market sewn up it now has the magnum underlever and break barrel

[look no hands]

DIana not only has the magnum side lever market sewn up it now has the magnum underlever and break barrel

That may be so but we don't want or need a magnum springer of any cocking style, it's only the yanks who muck it all up (or our 12ftp limit) with their hunger for power, but I have read a few posts from U.S. forums (and may be even some comments on here) that a lot of them are finding their rifles nicer to shoot at our power levels and are reducing their rifles power accordingly.

Pete