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Thread: "The Air Gun as a Serious Weapon" by H Marks

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    A match airgun is not designed to cause bodily harm or damage to anything other than a paper target.
    You're splitting hairs and just repeating the same thing...and I countered your statement with the following....

    Quote Originally Posted by harvey_s View Post
    ...match airguns are merely derivitaves of their primary functions - but the connection is still there and they could instantly be reverted in the wrong hands.
    Care to present a reasoned argument that disproves a match rifle abilities to kill or maim a child instead of unqualified repetition?
    Don't forget an FT or HFT 'match' rifle will be 12 ft/lbs and even a 10m 'match' rifle will be 6 ft/lbs and could be discharged at point blank range.
    A match rifle is just a version of a hunting rifle that is designed to be more accurate than a regular air rifle - its function of delivering the same lead projectile at the highest allowable velocity remains unaltered.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by harvey_s View Post
    You're splitting hairs and just repeating the same thing...and I countered your statement with the following....



    Care to present a reasoned argument that disproves a match rifle abilities to kill or maim a child instead of unqualified repetition?
    Don't forget an FT or HFT 'match' rifle will be 12 ft/lbs and even a 10m 'match' rifle will be 6 ft/lbs and could be discharged at point blank range.
    A match rifle is just a version of a hunting rifle that is designed to be more accurate than a regular air rifle - its function of delivering the same lead projectile at the highest allowable velocity remains unaltered.
    Harvey I very carefully didn't reply because it's obvious we totally disagree on this question.

    "Derivatives of primary functions"? Not sure exactly what you mean by this. Is a kid's cap gun a 'derivative' of a .44 Magnum? In one sense it is, but it's absurd to suggest that it's therefore a weapon...

    Hitting someone over the head with a match air rifle is likely to cause much more harm than shooting a pellet from it.

    Does this make it a weapon? It just means that like any other heavy object it can be (mis)used as one.

    Obviously you have a point about safe handling, and airguns should be treated as dangerous from a safety point of view, like any gun.

    But are airguns 'weapons'? No, they are not.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post

    "Derivatives of primary functions"? Not sure exactly what you mean by this. Is a kid's cap gun a 'derivative' of a .44 Magnum? In one sense it is, but it's absurd to suggest that it's therefore a weapon...
    It means that it's primary function of being a hunting weapon firing the same lead pellet at the same velocity remains unchanged.
    Therefore the damage that the projectile can inflict at arrival also remains unchanged.
    IE. By adding the word 'match' you have not altered it's intrinsic design purpose.

    The kid's cap gun IS an example however of where the design HAS been changed to remove the ability to cause harm and therefore is not a weapon....but the 'match' still is one in the eyes of the law and quite rightly so.
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  4. #19
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    Does it matter anymore?

    By which I mean that it's clear that 100+ years ago, "weapon" did not carry the negative connotation that it does now.

    But not that long ago, "gun" did not have a negative connotation.

    Look at any recent newspaper and it's clear that gun = bad dangerous hurty/killy thing.

    Ditto on "knife crime", which ought more properly to be called something like "stabby/slashy/hacky crime involving bladed object". But that doesn't work in a press release or headline. So knife = bad thing, not knife = everyday tool.

    I will continue to call guns guns, and reserve "weapon" for items designed or regularly used for anti-personnel use. But I don't think the general populace not familiar with shooting make any emotional distinction between gun, rifle, pistol, weapon, firearm or whatever.

    So this is a debate we have among ourselves without significant effect beyond our community.

  5. #20
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    To illustrate my earlier point, while I live in London, I grew up in a small village and still regularly visit family in a (different) small village.

    In London, when I disclose I participate in the shooting sports, reactions vary from negative (guns are bad; shooting lovely bunnies is bad) through neutral but intrigued (really, actual guns?) to the odd moment when you meet a kindred spirit who seems relieved and pleased to meet someone else who shoots.

    Whereas in rural areas, saying you shoot usually is taken as normal: no different from saying you play golf (ugh!), own a car, or sometimes go to the pub for Sunday lunch.

    Those attitudes matter much more than whether recreational guns are or aren't "weapons". And we should focus on increasing the number of people with a positive or neutral attitude to our sport, rather than arguing among ourselves about the meaning of nouns.

    Having lived a while on the Continent (and respecting linguistic and cultural differences), it is notable that in places like the Netherlands and Germany that all guns there are routinely called weapons, but that does not appear negatively to affect public or political acceptance of the shooting sports.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    Does it matter anymore?

    By which I mean that it's clear that 100+ years ago, "weapon" did not carry the negative connotation that it does now.

    But not that long ago, "gun" did not have a negative connotation.

    Look at any recent newspaper and it's clear that gun = bad dangerous hurty/killy thing.

    Ditto on "knife crime", which ought more properly to be called something like "stabby/slashy/hacky crime involving bladed object". But that doesn't work in a press release or headline. So knife = bad thing, not knife = everyday tool.

    I will continue to call guns guns, and reserve "weapon" for items designed or regularly used for anti-personnel use. But I don't think the general populace not familiar with shooting make any emotional distinction between gun, rifle, pistol, weapon, firearm or whatever.

    So this is a debate we have among ourselves without significant effect beyond our community.
    I think you make a very good point and you're right, this is really a debate only of importance to us, while 'out there' the debate has moved on without us.

    But equally I don't think we should feel obliged to adopt language based on fear and ignorance, or give ground that rightfully should never have been conceded in the first place.

    Just because many (urban) people see anything gun-shaped as 'bad' and by definition a 'weapon' doesn't mean we have to go along with it.

    If plinking with an airgun is equated in the public mind with warfare, that's their problem, not mine.

    Vintage Airgun Gallery ... Vintage BSA Forum
    ..Above links posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  7. #22
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    definition of weapon.

    Thank you Mr D T Fletcher [Portland Oregon], I have enjoyed this debate. Obviously in USA attitudes to guns/weapons are very different than in UK. What are your opinions? I'll add my 'tuppence worth' - An airgun is not just a weapon but potentially a deadly weapon, if I shot you in the eye with a 12ft lb .177 target air rifle, the pellet would pass through your eyeball & bounce around inside your scull resulting in death or at best you would be cabbaged. So airguns should be treated with great, safety & respect as all weapons should.
    Last edited by cringe; 21-04-2017 at 01:28 PM.

  8. #23
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    The world have gone mad

    An air gun is an air gun, a sword is a weapon. Both have to be treated with respect, just as a car does. Anything can kill, but not everything is a weapon. The End
    Kempton 25th June is Air Gun Day.

  9. #24
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    hand bags at 10 yards

    Quote Originally Posted by Binners View Post
    An air gun is an air gun, a sword is a weapon. Both have to be treated with respect, just as a car does. Anything can kill, but not everything is a weapon. The End
    OK, Binners, I challenge you to hand bags at 10 yards, mine will have a Webley Senior in it [.22]. But seriously sorry if I've pissed you off!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binners View Post
    An air gun is an air gun, a sword is a weapon. Both have to be treated with respect, just as a car does. Anything can kill, but not everything is a weapon. The End
    Nice to believe....but wrong
    Last word belongs to the OE dictionary as English was our mother tongue last time I checked...
    Weapon (noun) : A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

    Anything else is just the ramblings of the deluded
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by harvey_s View Post
    Nice to believe....but wrong
    Last word belongs to the OE dictionary as English was our mother tongue last time I checked...
    Weapon (noun) : A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

    Anything else is just the ramblings of the deluded
    Talking of deluded... my Webley Senior was not designed to, nor has ever been used to, inflict bodily harm or physical damage (except to paper). Ergo it is not a weapon. The same can be said for all of my airguns.

    Then again, if a Webley Senior was used to bludgeon someone to death, it could fairly be called the murder weapon.
    Vintage Airgun Gallery ... Vintage BSA Forum
    ..Above links posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cringe View Post
    OK, Binners, I challenge you to hand bags at 10 yards, mine will have a Webley Senior in it [.22]. But seriously sorry if I've pissed you off!

    My Dear Mr Cringe, never be sorry at the thought of ''pissing off'' people on here. I am never offended by this forum Amazed at some of the numpties opinions from time to time All good fun and we all know the time of day
    Kempton 25th June is Air Gun Day.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binners View Post
    An air gun is an air gun, a sword is a weapon. Both have to be treated with respect, just as a car does. Anything can kill, but not everything is a weapon. The End
    Quote Originally Posted by harvey_s View Post
    Nice to believe....but wrong
    Last word belongs to the OE dictionary as English was our mother tongue last time I checked...
    Weapon (noun) : A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

    Anything else is just the ramblings of the deluded

    ''Not everything is a weapon'' and English ''Was'' our mother tongue The End...

    Any other comments will be construed as the start of a new argument. Good Night
    Kempton 25th June is Air Gun Day.

  14. #29
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    I agree with Danny. If an object is designed to inflict harm then by definition it is always a weapon. Anything else is not a weapon until the time it is used perversely to inflict harm.
    So all my airguns at the moment are no more weapons than the bread knife in my kitchen drawer. But of course things could change if I am pushed too hard!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    I agree with Danny. If an object is designed to inflict harm then by definition it is always a weapon. Anything else is not a weapon until the time it is used perversely to inflict harm.
    So all my airguns at the moment are no more weapons than the bread knife in my kitchen drawer. But of course things could change if I am pushed too hard!
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...qHgWlxUWFVT-M:
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