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Thread: Are NS Panamax really this bad?

  1. #16
    secretagentmole Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Amac View Post
    I have owned a couple recently and would rate them as good value for money. I would also suggest that many scopes in this particular price bracket do tend to lose zero if the parallax setting is altered along with the zoom. My own way around this was to find the optimum position for both and leave them. This is of course not that practical, so it might be worth those purchasing such scopes to try and confirm your zero settings if you keep moving the settings and making a note of any change to your point of impact. More expensive optics do not tend to suffer from this, which, in addition to the quality of the lenses, is why some shooters pay a lot of money for a quality scope.

    Andy
    If a scope moves POI with alteration of the parallax then it is faulty and should be returned!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretagentmole View Post
    If a scope moves POI with alteration of the parallax then it is faulty and should be returned!
    I have a Nikko Mountmaster 3-9x50AO which suffers from the same problems as Amec outlined.
    I recently read some posts along the same lines suggesting that the optical centre is not aligned with the mechanical centre of the objective lens on cheaper scopes. This results in the POI describing a circle as the objective lens is rotated for parallax adjustment.
    I just accept it as a lesson learned about cheap scopes and re-zero if I adjust the parallax.
    I also have a Hawke Sport HD (HK series) 4-12x50 which is not a PA scope but was easily adjusted on the objective lens to suit airgun ranges. This is certainly adequate for my needs, as the depth of field at the magnifications that I favour provide a sharp image with a consistent POI. The parallax error is now minimal.
    I will avoid choosing a PA scope in future unless I am prepared to spend a substantial sum and get a side focus rather than an objective bell adjustment.

  3. #18
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    I would have had to have returned a lot of budget scopes over the years if they were indeed faulty. Personally, I consider that most scopes falling into this category are pretty damned good these days. If I discovered any issues with shifting zero I would just work out what worked best, and as I have mentioned previously, just leave the scope in question set so that it can meet as many possible shooting scenarios as possible (25 yard parallax, 9 mag for example.)

    Interestingly, the last scope I had that fell into the "budget" category had no zero shift whatsoever. This was very recently and I can only presume that not only are the lenses improving all of the time, but the build quality must be also.

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amac View Post
    I would have had to have returned a lot of budget scopes over the years if they were indeed faulty. Personally, I consider that most scopes falling into this category are pretty damned good these days. If I discovered any issues with shifting zero I would just work out what worked best, and as I have mentioned previously, just leave the scope in question set so that it can meet as many possible shooting scenarios as possible (25 yard parallax, 9 mag for example.)

    Interestingly, the last scope I had that fell into the "budget" category had no zero shift whatsoever. This was very recently and I can only presume that not only are the lenses improving all of the time, but the build quality must be also.

    Andy
    Yes, the 25 yard parallax, x9 magnification sounds very familiar as a default setting!
    It works for most of my applications leaving me to wonder why I bought an AO scope in the first place! I am sure that I have adjusted my non AO Hawke to pretty much the same settings.
    Would you care to let us in on the identity of this new scope that you bought just in case they made more than one of them that works properly?!!

  5. #20
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    It was a Hawke!!!
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  6. #21
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    Maybe I need to try buying one after all then!
    Out of interest I tried shooting my Nikko scoped 77 at 40 metres yesterday using
    1-1/4 mildots of holdover, as it is zeroed at 25 metres. The AO is also set to 25 metres.
    All was as expected until I rotated the objective lens about 45 degrees to the 40 metre setting. The next two shots were at 2 o'clock but 70mm from the poa!
    I then moved the AO ring back to the 25 metre setting and was dead centre on the bull (poa).
    It was a graphic demonstration of the fault!
    Which Hawke was it? ;-)
    Last edited by Scubashot; 24-04-2017 at 11:40 AM.

  7. #22
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    You will notice a POI change with front AO budget scopes (Hawkes, Nikkos, even the Nikon EFR). If you find one than doesnt do it - then its pure luck. Same happens with the magnification normaly, but a bit less pronunced.


    So you got a few chances. First- keep buying budget scopes till you get one than its aligned. Second - if your does it... Keep the settings and shoot it always like that. Third- if you need move setings- make a range card with your correct POI. Last one (the one i did after like 20 diferent scopes) - buy a decent scope if you can aford. my Leupold 3-9x33 EFR doesnt have that problem.
    Last edited by nunofrancisco; 24-04-2017 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #23
    Blackrider's Avatar
    Blackrider is offline It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got a Spring
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    It begs the question, where is the cut off point ? But it'll not be cut and dried, it's going to be a bit of a grey area I reckon.
    You would expect "top end" optics to be free of the problem.
    “An airgun or two”………

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nunofrancisco View Post
    You will notice a POI change with front AO budget scopes (Hawkes, Nikkos, even the Nikon EFR). If you find one than doesnt do it - then its pure luck. Same happens with the magnification normaly, but a bit less pronunced.


    So you got a few chances. First- keep buying budget scopes till you get one than its aligned. Second - if your does it... Keep the settings and shoot it always like that. Third- if you need move setings- make a range card with your correct POI. Last one (the one i did after like 20 diferent scopes) - buy a decent scope if you can aford. my Leupold 3-9x33 EFR doesnt have that problem.
    If I'm just plinking targets in the garden then it's not the end of the world.

    There is a noticeable parallax movement of the target when shooting at 40 or 50 metres with the scope set at 25. This does tend to open the group up laterally if I don't pay attention to accurate head position. If I take the trouble to set the AO to 40 or 50 metres and rezero there is no image movement and the lateral flyers disappear.

    In the field it would be more of a problem and I would have to seriously consider investing in a quality scope that actually does what it says on the box.
    As it is I just use it as a non-AO scope that is easier to reparallax than most!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nunofrancisco View Post
    You will notice a POI change with front AO budget scopes (Hawkes, Nikkos, even the Nikon EFR). If you find one than doesnt do it - then its pure luck. Same happens with the magnification normaly, but a bit less pronunced.


    So you got a few chances. First- keep buying budget scopes till you get one than its aligned. Second - if your does it... Keep the settings and shoot it always like that. Third- if you need move setings- make a range card with your correct POI. Last one (the one i did after like 20 diferent scopes) - buy a decent scope if you can aford. my Leupold 3-9x33 EFR doesnt have that problem.
    I'm sorry to say that I think this is right. I've dealt with optics all my life, from microscopes to telescopes and everything in between, and compared with just about any other type of optical instrument I think it is surprising how good some £150 scopes can be. That sort of money will hardly buy one objective lens on a decent pair of binoculars. Because of their design, AO scopes are the least likely to be true, and personally, I steer clear of them. SF scopes are a bit better, on the whole, but whatever type of scope you use, depending on what degree of precision you want, you have probably got to think in terms of £500+, or do what nunofrancisco says - or get lucky.

    Alan

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer50 View Post
    I'm sorry to say that I think this is right. I've dealt with optics all my life, from microscopes to telescopes and everything in between, and compared with just about any other type of optical instrument I think it is surprising how good some £150 scopes can be. That sort of money will hardly buy one objective lens on a decent pair of binoculars. Because of their design, AO scopes are the least likely to be true, and personally, I steer clear of them. SF scopes are a bit better, on the whole, but whatever type of scope you use, depending on what degree of precision you want, you have probably got to think in terms of £500+, or do what nunofrancisco says - or get lucky.

    Alan
    Hi Alan,

    Thanks for your input.
    With your background you can probably tell me if, as I suspect, side focus adjustment of the objective lens is inherently superior to rotating the lens on a screw thread?
    Does the s/f system still move the objective lens in and out or does it bring other mechanisms into play?
    It seems to me that rotating the lens is always going to exaggerate the problems of any imperfections in the lens or its mounting. At least refocussing it without revolving it should keep errors consistent - I think?!!

    Regards,

    Clive

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrider View Post
    Interesting, what do you use it for, hunting or targets ?
    Both, its a very clear scope on max mag for targets and set a 12x in the field the wide view is superb.
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  13. #28
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    I've completely given up on cheap scopes with AO's, recently bought a 'Hawke Vantage 3-9x40AO/MD' which fails to hold a zero on my TXhc and the p.o.i moves slightly when I alter the mag and/or the AO so as of Sunday just gone the TX now wears a cheap 'AGS Sapphire 3-9x40' which comes PX'd at 35yds, has a reasonably fine duplex ret, exceptionally good (for the money) glass and most important of all holds a zero, doesn't shift p.o.i when the mag is altered and its springer rated to boot, all for 40 notes...

  14. #29
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    The bottom line is that if you want a scope that is unaffected by alterations to parallax or magnification you will have to pay for it and buy something manufactured in Japan, Germany or the U.S. You might drop lucky and buy a cheaper scope that works perfectly well, but my own experiences over the decades means a more expensive purchase if I want a "serious" scope that holds a zero no matter what.

    For those who have yet to take a peek through a more expensive scope, you will be impressed with the clarity of the image. My main scope at present is a Nightforce and it is a joy to use. Problem is it cost a lot of money and I appreciate that not many shooters will be prepared to pay the equivalent price of a half decent used car on a scope. It is not the type of purchase you would make unless you are indeed a serious shooter who has over time realised that there is no easy way to achieve high performance without paying out lots of cash.

    In saying that, I also recently bought an FX 4-12x40 from abroad. The image quality is not in the same league as a "serious" scope, but I have noticed that it doesnt shift about as much as other cheap scopes when the front adjustable objective is altered. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this post however, I might just have been lucky and got a decent example. Considering it cost around £120 posted, I consider this scope a decent purchase.

    Anyway, I hope that if you cannot afford an expensive scope, take the good advice provided elsewhere and consider a fixed objective lens as you will be much less likely to experience that annoying zero shift problem.

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  15. #30
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    this is why I don't buy PA scopes any more.. unless you are spending say £200+, it's pretty well guaranteed that PA adjustment will result in POI movement. Luckily for 12 FP airguns, 95% of shots are in the 20-40 yard range, so just PX your non AO scope for 30 yards and job done. Less stuff to go wrong, less weight, and more money spent on the lenses If I do happen to acquire a secondhand PA scope, 99.9% of the time I'll set it to 30 yards (real, not what is written on the bezel) and never move it. If you are doing 40 or 50 yard benchrest, fine, adjust the PA, and rezero. But most of us don't

    Keeping to sensible sized objectives max 40mm or maybe 44 helps reduce PX error too.

    Zoom is somewhat usefull than AO, in as much as I leave my 3-9x on 9x all the time, but if I need to shoot something at say 10 yards, you can always wind the zoom down to 3x, enabling you to see it clearly enough, and any PX or POI movement at 10 yards is pretty much irrelevant
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

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