What killed Webley?

[derekj]

I think lack of advertisement/marketing in export countries.
There was nothing wrong with Stongray/Longbow triggers. They werent 'worse' than comparable T05 Diana triggers, which is/was a good, decent, trigger. And I actually prefer the Lb triggers above the long sluggish Record. The Lb triggers are far shorter in travel than a standard Record can ever be.

Webley build quality was far abóve the competition; havent seen better blueing than on Webley high end rifles. HW/Diana/AA couldnt get on par with that.

But, at least here in the netherlands, they werent marketed at all. So they sold badly. They were also quite steep in price. Probably also because they were from across the pond instead of from the country next door.
Lesser known brands are always more difficult to sell. People, most of them anyway, look at what their neighbor has. They are herd people. And the herd has HW. Easy.
Also, with FT etc becoming more popular, underlevers became more popular and Webley didnt have 1 (after discontinuing the Eclipse) and the Eclipse couldnt compete.
Dunno much about PCP's, Im into springers, but the 2shot PCPs I've never understood. I think that wasnt a seller either. You dont see any 2shot pcp's anymore either. For a reason. Its all 5/10 shot.
So the internal adjustment to market wishes was also a bit lacking. And tháts deadly. You have to give the customer what it wants or they wont buy.

The Webley trigger on the Stingray is no where near as good as the Diana T05 trigger, and the T06 trigger is superb. The AA bluing is far superior to any Webley rifle I've ever seen.

[PCPShooter]

Evening all...... I was pondering this question and thought I'd pose it to experts. Webley produced some of the best springers out there..... Omega, Longbow, etc.

Was it because they didn't get ahead of the game when those new-fangled PCP's were all the rage, or something else?

Cheers

Dunk

None of the owners / directors shot -
Greed / robbing company pension scheme
Out of date production / technology (lets base this design on the spare O rings in the warehouse mentality)

[Geezer]

All of the above. And until the 1930s Webley were the main supplier of revolvers to the UK/Imperial armed forces. Then they decided that the (Government owned) Enfield revolver - a close copy of the Webley - would be bought instead. That put a huge hole in Webley's viability as a business. Probably downhill from then.

Latterly, in airguns, they lost out to the Germans in the important US market by the late 70s. And they just could not compete even at home.

Their answer to the rise of 10m shooting were the MkIII and Osprey Supertargets - up against LG55s, HW55s, and the Diana and FWB recoilless springers. And they didn't even try to make a credible 10m target pistol.

It took them until late 1984 to bring out the Omega, their first break-barrel that could compare well with the early 70s FWB Sport (and was little more than a Sport/335 hybrid). By which time the FWB (1973), Diana 45 (1978), and HW80 (1980) had conquered the premium springer market. And the HW77 had arrived on the scene.

And the Omega cost 15-25% more than its established German rivals. As did the Eclipse. I'm amazed anyone bought an Eclipse.

[harry mac]

Pre- WW2, Webley made a vast aray of firearms. If a regional gunsmith sold a Birmingham made gun under his own name, chances are it was a Webley product re-branded. They ade shotguns, revolvers, pistols, rifles, the whole shebang. They also had government contracts for revolvers. With that kind of clout, they could afford to lose a few shillings per unit on the Webley Service air rifle (if the rumours are to be believed).
Unfortunately, the post war industrial climate in Britain, along with the loss of gov't contracts and the wane in the popularity of shooting sports started a down hill spiral for them.
An earlier poster mentioned the "base it on the spare washers we've got in the warehouse" mentality. If you look at a lot of the Webley airguns since 1960, this practice is very evident. Hawk Mk1 drew heavilly on tube stock and barrels from the Falcon. The Hawk MkII was an almost totally new design, but was flawed and the Hawk MkIII was a barely tinkered with Hawk MkII. The Vulcan was an oportunity missed because they insisted on using up the left over Hawk barrels, which means that, just like the Hawk, they end up going "wobbly" after a few years.
Osprey to Viscount, to Tracker. More using up of old parts on "new" models.
By the time they upped their game and brought out the Omega, it was too late.

[buttloaves]

I made a stock for a Webley raider 10 a year or so ago and i was impressed by its quality and design, i liked the side bolt idea, would lend itself well to a bullpup, never got to try the gun out though as the guy didn't give me a magazine or a charging adaptor, what are the triggers like.

[Geezer]

Pre- WW2, Webley made a vast aray of firearms. If a regional gunsmith sold a Birmingham made gun under his own name, chances are it was a Webley product re-branded. They ade shotguns, revolvers, pistols, rifles, the whole shebang. They also had government contracts for revolvers. With that kind of clout, they could afford to lose a few shillings per unit on the Webley Service air rifle (if the rumours are to be believed).
Unfortunately, the post war industrial climate in Britain, along with the loss of gov't contracts and the wane in the popularity of shooting sports started a down hill spiral for them.
An earlier poster mentioned the "base it on the spare washers we've got in the warehouse" mentality. If you look at a lot of the Webley airguns since 1960, this practice is very evident. Hawk Mk1 drew heavilly on tube stock and barrels from the Falcon. The Hawk MkII was an almost totally new design, but was flawed and the Hawk MkIII was a barely tinkered with Hawk MkII. The Vulcan was an oportunity missed because they insisted on using up the left over Hawk barrels, which means that, just like the Hawk, they end up going "wobbly" after a few years.
Osprey to Viscount, to Tracker. More using up of old parts on "new" models.
By the time they upped their game and brought out the Omega, it was too late.

This is all spot on.

[andrewM]

This is a most interesting thread and might, at the micro level, be analogous of the situation at the macro level with regard to so much of British industry.

It is also sad to consider the plight of Britain's airgun history, given that BSA was the forerunner of the modern air rifle. As in so many other areas, in Britain, we were far ahead of the game with our inventions and innovations. The Germans copied everything we did prior to WW1 but, unlike us, invested the capital.

Alas, the mentality here was the greatest financial return for the least investment. Management did not invest in R&D (research and development) and that finished Webley, as it did for so much of British industry.

There were, of course, exceptions and in the shooting world these encompassed Air Arms and Daystate - being two examples. They proved that we were still up there with the best of the competition.

In common with many, here, I could not find a worthwhile British air rifle in the late 70s, so I bought an FWB127 and then an Original 45; the latter still performs well some 37 years later.

Webley could have been saved. What a magnificent brand name to own. I would have canvassed the views and requirements of the leading and best informed consumers and then produced the best rifles, featuring consistency, accuracy, durability, first class triggers and - lastly - the consideration of price.

I don't know who owns Webley today but that could all still be done and produced in this country. It would require venture capital but that could be raised. The old Mk3 could be resuscitated (with its famous blueing) but completely re-designed with a modern trigger, updated loading breach, improved accuracy, modern sight rail, improved open sights (for those who prefer them), and additional improvements. Many shooters would give the new designs sentimental preference over the foreign competition if they proved themselves worthy.

Even all these years later, the brand would sell itself but, given the prevalence of modern media and the internet, a successful product would quickly take off and the name could again become associated with top class quality and reliability.

Rgds
A

[DSidelever]

I understand the 'Webley raider 10' was in fact designed for them by Fred Axelsson at his first company which purely did design work. The Raider design was sold to Webley (W & Scott ?) who of course later sold it on to Hatsan. The FX2000 and a couple of other designs by Fred A were marketed as 'Webley' towards the end but not even made in house ... at that stage.

[Airsporterman]

What killed Webley?

I believe the murder was carried out in the Ballroom, by Colonel Mustard using a ........W........Candlestick!

Seriously, as has been pointed out by others, it was probably a mixture of things including the 'British Management Ethic' as a model - it has stood all the British Industries that once led the world well to the point we are at today - poor slaves to a Bureaucratic and uncaring European system as well as our own 'Govmint' - possibly!

ASM

[njaw]

When I received my first pay packet (in 1985), I bought one of the first HW77's for use at Field Targets use.
Everyone at the club gathered around to look at it.

Prior to the purchase, I had tried all the BSA and Webley ranges and could not believe how twangy and how poor the triggers were. Sure, the HW77 was twangy, but it shot one hole groups straight from the box!

[buttloaves]

I understand the 'Webley raider 10' was in fact designed for them by Fred Axelsson at his first company which purely did design work. The Raider design was sold to Webley (W & Scott ?) who of course later sold it on to Hatsan. The FX2000 and a couple of other designs by Fred A were marketed as 'Webley' towards the end but not even made in house ... at that stage.

I did wonder as the breech block was very similar to the one on my old FX Cyclone.

[I. J.]

'What Killed Webley?'

Their pistols.

[Im sorry I tried not to comment. ]

[Dunk1302]

Thanks all for your contributions - I can consider myself well and truly edificated (even if it is in a tale of woe )

I have to confess my first airgun, as a tender teenager in the 80's was an HW80, but my second was an Omega which has now been joined by a Brumbow and (brum) Stingray.

I have to agree on the Eclipse front...... when it was first released, and the Omega was discontinued, it seemed like a shameless attempt to jump on the (HW77) under-lever band-wagon, but with an inferior product - I can never forgive the Eclipse for killing off the Omega (if indeed that was the case)

Dunk

[DT Fletcher]

Another very significant factor is that Germany had to start airgun production from scratch; as most probably already know, England confiscated the old Diana machinery and started production of English Diana models. Germany got the better of deal since they had to acquire all brand new production machinery and worked on modern designs.

There was also the significant factor that strict post-war firearms restrictions created a demand for super precision airguns, for adults, where none had existed before. If not for these firearms restrictions, it's unlikely that the modern European precision air rifle would have ever come into existence; at least not on the same scale. This really came to light when studying the cultural history of guns in Tyrol.

Regarding Webley; all I would add is that here in the US Webley ran a distance second to BSA in terms of distribution. If anyone other than Stoegers mail order catalog and Beeman carried Webley, I sure can't recall it. I was able to pick up a BSA Scorpion at a local sporting goods store. Don't think I ever saw a single Webley in a retail environment.

In general, any company in a competitive market that fails to innovate and expand is bound to fail at some point. Benjamin and Sheridan, after initial periods of innovation, settled on dated designs and never seriously moved beyond them for the next 40 years. Benjamin never once employed a design engineer. Sheridan never once diverted from their singular design. However, one of the real keys to the modern success of Crosman is, contrary to most expectations I would expect, Coleman. Coleman brought modern distribution techniques to Crosman. Without which, Crosman likely would have gone tits up ages ago.

[DM80]

Webley springers were not as good as hw Diana fwb AA so they went plop end of.

dave.