What killed Webley?

[cinedux]

When Weihrauch rifles came on the NZ market you couldn't give a Webley away! The pistol scene was a different story. Crosman's hand-guns ensured fine old Webleys remained on shop shelves. In a country starved of pistols and revolvers,replicas filled the bill.Of course now,or up until recently(and importation prohibition),Umarex products dominated.

[Geezer]

Thanks all for your contributions - I can consider myself well and truly edificated (even if it is in a tale of woe )

I have to confess my first airgun, as a tender teenager in the 80's was an HW80, but my second was an Omega which has now been joined by a Brumbow and (brum) Stingray.

I have to agree on the Eclipse front...... when it was first released, and the Omega was discontinued, it seemed like a shameless attempt to jump on the (HW77) under-lever band-wagon, but with an inferior product - I can never forgive the Eclipse for killing off the Omega (if indeed that was the case)

Dunk

Agreed. My first, by the way, was an FWB127, at the same time.

I don't think the Eclipse killed off the Omega. The Omega simply didn't sell - it came out at the same time as the 77, and everyone (encouraged by AGW's focus on FT) went underlever-crazy. Then they went PCP crazy. By 1994, when they stopped selling Omegas, no-one in the UK wanted an expensive break-barrel.

And when did the Eclipse come out? Four years after the 77. When did the Omega? Eleven years after the FWB, six after the 45, four after the 80.

As for the Xocet, Stingray, Tommie, and 'bow? 2000 for the first 3 and 2002 for the 'bow. Great guns, but back then almost no-one wanted a quality springer. And for those who did, HW was the obvious choice.

From about 1950-something, Webley spent their time either ignoring (or not understanding) the imperative from the market, or responding to it about 4 years too late. I am no fan of the Eclipse, but in 1985 it would just have been competitive, as a function of novelty. In 1988, it was a bit of a joke. I am a fan of the Omega: but in late 84 it was over-priced and irrelevant; in 79 it would have been a potential world-beater, in 81 still competitive.

[Muskett]

I sold my father's Webley MKIII for a FWB 124. The other good rifle was the Original 45 if it wasn't a HW35. Basically the cheap scopes showed up how poor Webleys and BSA's were; not good enough to shoot beyond the farmyard.
Then arrived the HW77 and HW80.
The Omega was too late and not good enough a trigger. The Eclipse came out soon after but for all the effort wasn't a HW77 beater, poor trigger again. BSA had to come up with the Superstar to challenge the HW77, and that it mainly did on price; good rifle though.

Webley made nothing for the military.
Sporting rifles were limited.
The Spanish AYA, and later Beretta, out priced the Webley shotguns.

The Vulcan and Viscount were good rifles if they had been made ten years earlier. Always let down by the trigger; same problem with BSA. Omega and Eclipse missed the narrow window by two years. Old machinery, high production costs, no investment, no innovation. So they went bust, bought out, went bust again.

[abellringer]

I have to agree with many of the comments about management and investment. I had first hand experience, there were directors who came into W & S mid 70's, they had no knowledge of guns and shooting ethos; I fell out with both fairly quickly. REASON. A conversation -- me why are we putting in cheap split pins and spirol dowels; answer -- how much do you think it costs to put in screws, never mind those bloody locking screws, dowels will do the same thing and make 50 times more profit. Me, I can understand the economics, but customers have expectations and the new German guns have super quality and engineering as standard, surely anything they can do we can at least match, reply if people want foreign guns it's up to them, but there will always be people who buy Webleys because of the history. Me -- ok so when are we going to make at least a proper 10m rifle if not pistol??, reply we aren't, there's more money in cheap and cheerful. Me -- yes but we had a reputable gun in the MKIII, we now only make low to mid range quality guns now, we need to keep up or lose customers, especially as the Hawk stocks and front screws aren't up to the job. Answer we make more money getting 4 stocks out of a plank than 3, even if the grain is no good through the grip. they don't all break and we are looking at the screws anyway, but we don't want to get into top quality or 10m stuff, our way forward is cheap and cheerful, if they don't last folk will always buy another anyway. Me -- isn't that a way to losing customers full stop? no one can carry on with that way of thinking. Reply -- what are you going on about, a gun is a gun, ''piece of wood, metal tubes on top, pull a lever and bang'', what more do want. Me -- sorry I don't agree, there's a whole lot of history, craftsmanship and personal pride in being in this trade and if I can't be allowed to have that in my mind I think we are on a parting path. Reply that's the trouble with trades like this, if you don't look at profits first you'll never succeed. etc. etc.
It was explained years later; ''they all went to the same school of mismanagement and now we feel the effects'', from a craftsman about to retire at 70, this in the 80's and sadly; I think he was right.
Accountants and non engineers have a lot to answer for.
That's my grumble out of the way and actually I feel better for it.
ATVB
abellringer

[look no hands]

I don't know who owns Webley today but that could all still be done and produced in this country.

I remember reading that Webley sold the business to AGS, shortly afterwards the factory was shut down and all the machinery and parts (leftover Brum made Longbow parts etc) were moved to the Hatsan factory in Turkey, they then made the Turkbow with some of the Brum made parts and then the later Hatsan produced parts, the Webley Stingray is now a restocked Hatsan with a price tag nearly four times that of a normal Hatsan.

Pete

[Geezer]

I remember reading that Webley sold the business to AGS, shortly afterwards the factory was shut down and all the machinery and parts (leftover Brum made Longbow parts etc) were moved to the Hatsan factory in Turkey, they then made the Turkbow with some of the Brum made parts and then the later Hatsan produced parts, the Webley Stingray is now a restocked Hatsan with a price tag nearly four times that of a normal Hatsan.

Pete

Correct, and now they are a brand of Highland outdoors, the airguns being mostly Hatsans and, until recently discontinued, Zoracki ("Alecto") and an Indonesian-made Sharp Innova copy (that was awful).

abellringer's post above is great, but sad, first-hand evidence of what went wrong.