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What killed Webley?
Evening all...... I was pondering this question and thought I'd pose it to experts. Webley produced some of the best springers out there..... Omega, Longbow, etc.
Was it because they didn't get ahead of the game when those new-fangled PCP's were all the rage, or something else?
Cheers
Dunk
"Every normal man must be tempted at times, to spit on his hands, raise the black flag & start slitting throats"
Banned
Webley was in at the start of pcp.....raider for one
Registered User
One reason was that the top brass thought they had more knowledge than Ivan Hancock and Steve Pope and wouldn't listen to there comments or ideas!!! Mach 1.5
Registered User
Not keeping up with other manufacturers, relying on past reputation and mismanagement.
I've got a bit of 80's nostalgia in me at the moment, my favourite guns are a 1981 HW80 and a 1987 HW77K, just pure pleasure to shoot. If you look back at that time BSA and Wembley could just not compete with that level of design and efficiency, then add the Rekord trigger, still unmatched on a springer after nearly 65 years!
Then you move into the realms of PCP's, the Rapid, still in my view the best gun ever made, then you have th S410 still going and competing on all levels, as Weihrauch they hit the ground running with the HW100. If you look at the efforts from Webley and BSA you have your answer.
Registered User
Great question !
Registered User
Trigger.
The management refused to invest, refused to build something better that could shoot beyond the farmyard, and blankly refused to build in a better quality trigger. They just couldn't see where airguns were going or what money the consumer would be prepared to pay for something better.
A Webley Vulcan deluxe had the same price as a HW80! BSA was almost as bad.
At the end of the day it came down to lack of imagination and lack of investment in machinery. Also everyone was paid handsomely without warranting it. Well thats what I think.
Sadly, they weren't the only example in British industry that just couldn't keep up with the times. All flogging a tired old horse, and surprised when it dropped dead.
Registered User
None of the owners / directors shot -Originally Posted by Dunk1302
Greed / robbing company pension scheme
Out of date production / technology (lets base this design on the spare O rings in the warehouse mentality)
Looking for TO-6 Trigger unit unmessed with or T0-6 kit for 34
Dodgy Diana User
All of the above. And until the 1930s Webley were the main supplier of revolvers to the UK/Imperial armed forces. Then they decided that the (Government owned) Enfield revolver - a close copy of the Webley - would be bought instead. That put a huge hole in Webley's viability as a business. Probably downhill from then.
Latterly, in airguns, they lost out to the Germans in the important US market by the late 70s. And they just could not compete even at home.
Their answer to the rise of 10m shooting were the MkIII and Osprey Supertargets - up against LG55s, HW55s, and the Diana and FWB recoilless springers. And they didn't even try to make a credible 10m target pistol.
It took them until late 1984 to bring out the Omega, their first break-barrel that could compare well with the early 70s FWB Sport (and was little more than a Sport/335 hybrid). By which time the FWB (1973), Diana 45 (1978), and HW80 (1980) had conquered the premium springer market. And the HW77 had arrived on the scene.
And the Omega cost 15-25% more than its established German rivals. As did the Eclipse. I'm amazed anyone bought an Eclipse.
You can't say muntjack without saying mmmmm
Pre- WW2, Webley made a vast aray of firearms. If a regional gunsmith sold a Birmingham made gun under his own name, chances are it was a Webley product re-branded. They ade shotguns, revolvers, pistols, rifles, the whole shebang. They also had government contracts for revolvers. With that kind of clout, they could afford to lose a few shillings per unit on the Webley Service air rifle (if the rumours are to be believed).
Unfortunately, the post war industrial climate in Britain, along with the loss of gov't contracts and the wane in the popularity of shooting sports started a down hill spiral for them.
An earlier poster mentioned the "base it on the spare washers we've got in the warehouse" mentality. If you look at a lot of the Webley airguns since 1960, this practice is very evident. Hawk Mk1 drew heavilly on tube stock and barrels from the Falcon. The Hawk MkII was an almost totally new design, but was flawed and the Hawk MkIII was a barely tinkered with Hawk MkII. The Vulcan was an oportunity missed because they insisted on using up the left over Hawk barrels, which means that, just like the Hawk, they end up going "wobbly" after a few years.
Osprey to Viscount, to Tracker. More using up of old parts on "new" models.
By the time they upped their game and brought out the Omega, it was too late.
The South of England has 2 good things, the M1 and the A1. Both will take you to Yorkshire.
Registered User
I made a stock for a Webley raider 10 a year or so ago and i was impressed by its quality and design, i liked the side bolt idea, would lend itself well to a bullpup, never got to try the gun out though as the guy didn't give me a magazine or a charging adaptor, what are the triggers like.
Dodgy Diana User
This is all spot on.
Registered User
This is a most interesting thread and might, at the micro level, be analogous of the situation at the macro level with regard to so much of British industry.
It is also sad to consider the plight of Britain's airgun history, given that BSA was the forerunner of the modern air rifle. As in so many other areas, in Britain, we were far ahead of the game with our inventions and innovations. The Germans copied everything we did prior to WW1 but, unlike us, invested the capital.
Alas, the mentality here was the greatest financial return for the least investment. Management did not invest in R&D (research and development) and that finished Webley, as it did for so much of British industry.
There were, of course, exceptions and in the shooting world these encompassed Air Arms and Daystate - being two examples. They proved that we were still up there with the best of the competition.
In common with many, here, I could not find a worthwhile British air rifle in the late 70s, so I bought an FWB127 and then an Original 45; the latter still performs well some 37 years later.
Webley could have been saved. What a magnificent brand name to own. I would have canvassed the views and requirements of the leading and best informed consumers and then produced the best rifles, featuring consistency, accuracy, durability, first class triggers and - lastly - the consideration of price.
I don't know who owns Webley today but that could all still be done and produced in this country. It would require venture capital but that could be raised. The old Mk3 could be resuscitated (with its famous blueing) but completely re-designed with a modern trigger, updated loading breach, improved accuracy, modern sight rail, improved open sights (for those who prefer them), and additional improvements. Many shooters would give the new designs sentimental preference over the foreign competition if they proved themselves worthy.
Even all these years later, the brand would sell itself but, given the prevalence of modern media and the internet, a successful product would quickly take off and the name could again become associated with top class quality and reliability.
Rgds
A
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