Latest re: Steyr LP50

[Cocksure]

Im guessing even if you wanted one they fall under the 97 pistol ban.

This is the point, ALL self loading pistols are banned, single shot only, the police are arguing that this Steyr is in fact a self loader....which it aint!
( whatever the power if it self loads it's banned...the power is unimportant)

What does self load mean? In relation to current toys and airguns? I refer you back to Tac..

[bighit]

This is the point, ALL self loading pistols are banned, single shot only, the police are arguing that this Steyr is in fact a self loader....which it aint!
( whatever the power if it self loads it's banned...the power is unimportant)

this was my point


Air pistols up to 6ft lbs m/e are NOT classed as firearms. More than that and you must have an FAC - less and you don't

[Murphy]

Does anybody have a copy of the CPS letter that states self loading airguns (Including rifles) falls out of the remit of firearms classification?

[bighit]

Does anybody have a copy of the CPS letter that states self loading airguns (Including rifles) falls out of the remit of firearms classification?

Air Weapons
An air weapon is defined, under section 1(3)(b) and 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 as:
"an air rifle, air gun or air pistol which does not fall within section 5 (1) (a) and which is not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the Firearms Act to be specially dangerous".
Any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses or is designed or adapted for use with, a self-contained gas cartridge system is a prohibited weapon: section 5(1)(af) Firearms Act 1968 e.g. a Brocock
An air rifle is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess in the case of a pistol of 6 ft lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 ft lbs: Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 rr. 2, 3 (Archbold 24-8a.)
Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of the Firearms Act, unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a01

[Murphy]

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a01

Also wasn't there a Home Office guidance letter from the top man stating the same thing?

[bighit]

Also wasn't there a Home Office guidance letter from the top man stating the same thing?

never seen it to be honest.

[RichardinDorset]

Air Weapons
An air weapon is defined, under section 1(3)(b) and 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 as:
"an air rifle, air gun or air pistol which does not fall within section 5 (1) (a) and which is not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the Firearms Act to be specially dangerous".
Any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses or is designed or adapted for use with, a self-contained gas cartridge system is a prohibited weapon: section 5(1)(af) Firearms Act 1968 e.g. a Brocock
An air rifle is "specially dangerous" if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess in the case of a pistol of 6 ft lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 ft lbs: Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 rr. 2, 3 (Archbold 24-8a.)
Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of the Firearms Act, unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms


http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a01

I thought pump action air rifles were illegal? (even sub 12ftlb)

[bighit]

from basc

What are air weapons?

Section 1(3) of the Firearms Act 1968 exempts certain items from the Section 1 firearm certificate control. Subsection 1(3)(b) specifically exempts ‘air weapons’. Section 57(4) of the Act (Interpretation) adopts the description shown at Section 1(3)(b) as definition for the Act. Therefore when the term “air weapon” is referred to throughout the Firearms Act it means those items described in the definition only. The definition is as follows;

“an ‘air weapon’ (that is to say, an air rifle, air gun or air pistol) which does not fall within the prohibited category and which is not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the 1968 Firearms Act to be specially dangerous.”

This means; air guns, air rifles and air pistols are exempt from the Section 1 certification requirement but only if they are not prohibited in the first place or of a type declared specially dangerous by the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 or the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) (Scotland) Rules 1969 (both amended in 1993). These are commonly referred to as ‘low powered air weapons’. Additionally Section 48 of the 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Act includes air weapons powered by compressed carbon dioxide (CO2). Firearms using other gases are not so exempt and require a firearm certificate in order to possess them, regardless of their power.

The Rules provide that any air weapon is “specially dangerous” if it is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6 foot lbs or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 foot lbs. Therefore specially dangerous air weapons fall outside the definition of “air weapon” for the purposes of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended).

NB: “Air gun” in law means an air weapon with a smoothbore barrel.

Are air weapons firearms?

“Firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged, and includes any prohibited weapon.

All air weapons capable of lethality are caught by the definition of “firearm” and fall into the following three categories;

• Air weapons as defined in Section 1(3)(b) of the 1968 Firearms Act (capable of lethality but not subject to certification); e.g. as per the definition of air weapon (above) certain air weapons not declared to be specially dangerous or prohibited i.e. kinetic energy remains below 6 ft lbs for pistols and for any other weapon 12 ft lbs.

• Those declared to be specially dangerous by the Secretary of State and require a firearm certificate; e.g. Section 1 firearms i.e. air rifles or airguns that exceed 12 ft lbs in muzzle energy or those that operate using other gasses than air or CO2.


• Prohibited weapons (Section 5) requiring the Secretary of State’s authority to possess them; e.g. high energy short firearms that exhibit over 6 ft lb kinetic energy, those specifically prohibited such as disguised air weapons (air canes), and those that incorporate the self-contained air cartridge system.

The test for whether or not something is a firearm is firstly whether it is a weapon with a barrel and secondly whether it is lethal. Lethality is a complex issue and although case law exists (Moore v Gooderham (1960)), only a court can decide whether any particular weapon is capable of causing a (potentially) lethal injury and therefore is a “firearm” for the purposes of the Acts. It is widely accepted that guns discharging shot, bullets or other missiles in excess of 1 joule (0.74 ft lbs) kinetic energy (often referred to as muzzle energy) are capable of lethality. In a court case, each case would be taken on its merits and tests conducted with the firearm in question.


So what types of air weapon are prohibited?

Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended) contains various descriptions. Any firearms (regardless of kinetic energy) that fall within any of the following definitions are prohibited weapons.

1. Any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeat pressure on the trigger. [Section 5(1)(a)] e.g. this means fully automatic and burst fire weapons of any type are banned.

2. Any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges. [Section 5(1)(ab)] (See definitions below)

NB: Although it was not Parliament’s intention that any low powered air weapons should be banned by the 1997 Acts, there is now considerable uncertainty as to whether a rifled airgun of the description covered by 5(1)(ab) has become prohibited even though it may be a very low powered weapon not hitherto held on certificate.

The Home Office have consulted ACPO and the Crown Prosecution Service about the legal status of these weapons and have agreed, in the absence of a court ruling, that the issue should be resolved formally at the next legislative opportunity. In the meantime chief officers are advised that self-loading or pump-action rifled airguns should continue to be regarded as falling outside the certification process provided that they are low powered and do not fall within the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969. ♣


3. Any firearm which either has a barrel less that 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signaling apparatus. [Section 5(1)(aba)] e.g. a low powered air weapon (i.e. one which is not declared by Rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the 1968 Act to be specially dangerous) such as an air pistol with a muzzle energy of over 6 ft lbs.


♦ Extract from ‘Firearms Law’ – Guidance to the Police [Home Office 2002] ♣ Extracts taken from Home Office Circular 068 of 1997
4. Any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not an air weapon or chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or is less than 40 inches in length overall. [Section 5(1)(ac)] This (See definitions below)

5. Any smooth-bore revolver gun other than one which is chambered for 9mm. rim-fire cartridges or a muzzle-loading gun [Section 5(1)(ad)] (See definitions below)

6. Any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses, or is designed or adapted for use with, a selfcontained gas cartridge system [Section 5(1)(af)] (i.e. Brocock and Saxby-Palmer type)

7. Any firearm which is disguised as another object [Section 5(1A)(a)] (e.g. air canes)

Note: where the law excepts “air weapon” in the categories above this only excludes those air weapons defined in Section 57(4) of the 1968 Firearms Act. That is to say those not declared specially dangerous i.e. below 6 ft lbs for pistols and for any other weapon 12 ft lbs kinetic energy; or those that have already been prohibited. e.g. an air pistol that exhibits a kinetic energy greater than 6 ft lbs no longer falls within the definition of an air weapon and is then subject to Section 5(1)(aba).

Further definitions relating to the categories above are provided in Section 57 of the 1968 Firearms Act:

"self-loading" and "pump-action" in relation to any weapon means respectively that it is designed or adapted (otherwise than as mentioned in section 5(l)(a)) so that it is automatically re-loaded or that it is so designed or adapted that it is re-loaded by the manual operation of the fore-end or forestock of the weapon.

“"revolver", in relation to a smooth-bore gun [Section 5(1)(ad)], means a gun containing a series of chambers which revolve when the gun is fired.” NB: this means mechanical action rotates the cylinder on firing; this does not include guns which work on the revolver principle that are manually operated such as by a bolt)

“’rifle' includes carbine;"

So what sets the energy limitations for a firearm to fall within the definition of air weapon?

The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969 and the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) (Scotland) Rules 1969 (both amended in 1993) prescribes the kinetic energy limits which dictate how air weapons are categorised in law. Items exhibiting a kinetic energy (often referred to as muzzle energy) in excess of the stated limits are declared ‘specially dangerous’ and cause air weapons to fall outside the definition of air weapon. In essence they are no longer low powered air weapons that you can possess without a certificate.

The rules say: air pistols capable of discharging a missile with a kinetic energy in excess of 6 ft. lb. or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, of 12 ft. lb or which is disguised as another object (regardless of energy) are declared to be specially dangerous.

These Rules does not apply to a weapon designed for use only when submerged in water i.e. spear guns.

In practical terms air rifles or air guns that exhibit kinetic energy of greater than 12 ft lbs are subject to Section 1 of the Act and require a firearm certificate in order to possess them.

Any short firearm (which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall) that is declared especially dangerous becomes prohibited weapon. Only the Secretary of State may permit these weapons to be possessed, but will only do so if there is a trade or professional need to do so, such as forensic practitioners and museums. Illegal possession of such a prohibited weapon attracts the 5 year mandatory sentence.






Conversion not to affect classification – changing an air weapon’s power

The wording of Section 7(2) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 is complex, but in essence once air weapons are prescribed as ‘specially dangerous’ they cannot be back converted and remain in their relevant categories (Section 1 & 5) regardless of what is done to them other than de-activation or destruction. However the only exception is for airguns (smoothbore air weapons) or for air rifles which have barrels in excess of 24 inches in length. These are the only types of air gun that may be converted back below 12 ft lbs legally.

A dealer who tests an air weapon and finds it to be specially dangerous may not hand the gun back to the owner. The owner maintains ownership but may not legally possess the air weapon unless he has a firearm certificate allowing him to do so. It would be an offence for a dealer to return such a gun to someone without such a certificate. In the case of prohibited pistols; deactivation or destruction is the only way forward but the owner must permit this to take place.


Airgun security

From February 2011, the Crime and Security Act 2010 makes it an offence for a person in possession of an air weapon to fail to take “reasonable precautions” to prevent someone under the age of 18 from gaining unauthorised access to it. The legal advice contained within this publication remains unchanged e.g. 14-17 year olds may still use air weapons unsupervised on private premises where they have permission etc.

For further advice about reasonable precautions for storing for air weapons not in use please contact BASC or see www.basc.org.uk for a copy of our fact sheet ‘Young People and Airguns’.

[bighit]

So what types of air weapon are prohibited?

Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended) contains various descriptions. Any firearms (regardless of kinetic energy) that fall within any of the following definitions are prohibited weapons.

1. Any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeat pressure on the trigger. [Section 5(1)(a)] e.g. this means fully automatic and burst fire weapons of any type are banned.

2. Any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges. [Section 5(1)(ab)] (See definitions below)

NB: Although it was not Parliament’s intention that any low powered air weapons should be banned by the 1997 Acts, there is now considerable uncertainty as to whether a rifled airgun of the description covered by 5(1)(ab) has become prohibited even though it may be a very low powered weapon not hitherto held on certificate.

The Home Office have consulted ACPO and the Crown Prosecution Service about the legal status of these weapons and have agreed, in the absence of a court ruling, that the issue should be resolved formally at the next legislative opportunity. In the meantime chief officers are advised that self-loading or pump-action rifled airguns should continue to be regarded as falling outside the certification process provided that they are low powered and do not fall within the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969. ♣

I thought pump action air rifles were illegal? (even sub 12ftlb)

[bighit]

some more info here

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...201960&f=false

the moore v gooderham bit

“If it is capable of causing more than trifling and trivial injury when misused then it is a weapon which is capable of causing injury from which death may occur.” Only a court could decide what would be classed as a “trifling injury”

[RichardinDorset]

So what types of air weapon are prohibited?

Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended) contains various descriptions. Any firearms (regardless of kinetic energy) that fall within any of the following definitions are prohibited weapons.

1. Any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeat pressure on the trigger. [Section 5(1)(a)] e.g. this means fully automatic and burst fire weapons of any type are banned.

2. Any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges. [Section 5(1)(ab)] (See definitions below)

NB: Although it was not Parliament’s intention that any low powered air weapons should be banned by the 1997 Acts, there is now considerable uncertainty as to whether a rifled airgun of the description covered by 5(1)(ab) has become prohibited even though it may be a very low powered weapon not hitherto held on certificate.

The Home Office have consulted ACPO and the Crown Prosecution Service about the legal status of these weapons and have agreed, in the absence of a court ruling, that the issue should be resolved formally at the next legislative opportunity. In the meantime chief officers are advised that self-loading or pump-action rifled airguns should continue to be regarded as falling outside the certification process provided that they are low powered and do not fall within the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969. ♣

So if a sub 12ft lb pump is illegal, so is a Steyr hunting 5 rifle. (Steyr calls it 'automatic' which is not a good start!)

With the Steyr, I guess the argument centres on the definition of 'loading'. (Ignoring the main issue of sub 12 rifles and sub 6 pistols being outside the scope of the firearms act). The mag indexes automatically, but the pellet isn't loaded into the breech. Of course there isn't a breech as such anyway. You could argue that the mag is actually 5 breeches in a row?

Anyway, a pump action pcp rifle would be really nice! So would an auto indexing one!

[Cocksure]

this was my point


Air pistols up to 6ft lbs m/e are NOT classed as firearms. More than that and you must have an FAC - less and you don't

Not if it 'self loads'.....then the power is meaningless because it's banned for it's action, this is why all the gassers were banned originaly, until their loading systems,same as Steyrs, were deemed legal. I think you'd have a hard time getting an FAC section allowing you to own a 'self loading' pistol.....because they throw one up the spout thereby loading themselves, banned!!!!

For self loading read 'automatic'... Banned banned banned!!!

Whereas....

Semi auto....sub 6 ft......Legal, yay!!!

Auto, pulling trigger fires bullet/projectile and the weapons action cycles the next INTO the firing position/barrel leaving the weapon loaded AND cocked....

Semi auto, gassers, Steyr...the trigger pull moves the next projectile in first stage, and fires it in second leaving the chamber empty.....EMPTY unless trigger is pulled again.

[RobF]

Semi auto, gassers, Steyr...the trigger pull moves the next projectile in first stage, and fires it in second leaving the chamber empty.....EMPTY unless trigger is pulled again.

No, that's double action.

Semi Auto, once the action has cycled puts a pellet into the chamber/barrel. The action of pulling the trigger releases the air which propels it.

Double action, the chamber is empty after the previous shot, the action of pulling the trigger puts a pellet into the chamber/barrel and the the trigger releases the air which propels it. That's why it's called double action.

Double action is what you typically find on a revolver, not that it matters as revolvers are exempted.

The advice from the CPS is just that. The law however has not been changed. Semi-auto air rifles, pistols or not, are as per described in ab

any self-loading or pump-action [F10rifled gun] other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;

What would be really nice is if the act was amended as per clause ac which covers smooth bores, because that removes air guns explicity from that clause.

any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not [an air weapon or] chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or F14. . . is less than 40 inches in length overall;

The difference is notable.

It's almost without doubt not the intention to cover air rifles/pistols, which is why the HO gave out the advice not to prosecute the small number in existance in the uk 20 years ago. That situation may have changed (the numbers) and the law still hasn't.

We've done this to death, but the HO themselves have stated the law hasn't changed, they're illegal. What they do about it is up to them... it isn't pretty, it's not what anyone would like, but that's it.

[Cocksure]

[QUOTE=RobF;7245754]No, that's double action.

Semi Auto, once the action has cycled puts a pellet into the chamber/barrel. The action of pulling the trigger releases the air which propels it.

Double action, the chamber is empty after the previous shot, the action of pulling the trigger puts a pellet into the chamber/barrel and the the trigger releases the air which propels it. That's why it's called double action.

Double action is what you typically find on a revolver, not that it matters as revolvers are exempted.

The advice from the CPS is just that. The law however has not been changed. Semi-auto air rifles, pistols or not, are as per described in ab



What would be really nice is if the act was amended as per clause ac which covers smooth bores, because that removes air guns explicity from that clause.
/QUOTE]

I was trying to avoid confusion with 'two stage' and keep it simple..ish. And revolvers.....but double action is the correct term. So semi-auto.And banned.

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

I always understood the "fire" part of firearm to be the defining word.

Early fire locks were so called because the ball was propelled by a very fast acting fire in the chamber.

I have always associated the word "firearms" with powder burners.

Perhaps the use of a more neutral term like word "gun"would be more appropriate.

We could then call them "airguns" in order to distinguish them from firearms.

Or spud guns, nail guns, water guns, etc.

If you told an American a Crosman 1377 was a firearm he would probably be very amused.