Latest re: Steyr LP50

[tacfoley]

Mornin', folks - I just got this from Steyr Sport UK -

In a message dated 25/04/2017 09:41:34 GMT Daylight Time, steyr.uk@talktalk.net writes:
Morning,

We have an LP50 that is being looked at to determine that it is self indexing and not self loading.

It is only North Yorkshire police that has an issue at the moment and have told us not to import or sell any.

We will put any further updates on our website if we get any.

Kind Regards,

Helen

Steyr Sport UK,

18 Millers Croft,

Copmanthorpe,

North Yorkshire,

YO23 3TW

Tel - (01904) 705401

Mob - 07752056811

Steyr UK Website - www.steyr-uk.co.uk



My response -

Hi, thanks for the call.

It is my understanding that the pistol is less than 6 ft lbs of m/e.

It does not, therefore, classify as ANY kind of firearm. It is, if you'll forgive the simplistic point of view, nothing more than a very expensive toy gun that shoots a pellet with every squeeze of the trigger. BTW, I have the previous model - the LP5 - recently converted to air.

I'm reliably informed that the Birmingham Proof House refused to countenance putting one to proof as it was not, in their opinion, ANY kind of a firearm. In any event, it does NOT self-load, but it DOES present/index a pellet, STILL in the magazine, into a position to be fired. That is to say, the pellet is NOT inserted into the barrel, as ANY self-loader actually does, but is positioned adjacent to it so that the pressure of air can propel it through the barrel.

Why, with many thousands of these air pistols in use throughout the world with no similar investigations having been carried out, are the air pistol shooters in North Yorkshire being singled out like this?

North Yorkshire constabulary would be better advised to concentrate their gun-hate on the many criminals in their area who use guns of any kind in the commission of their daily activities, rather than persecute owners and prospective owners who are ready to pay upwards of £1500 for a rather posh pop gun.

Let's be blatantly harsh here, folks. How long does it take anybody who is cleared to operate a spoon to see that the pellet actually lines up with the barrel, but does not ENTER the barrel until the air blows it there. C'mon, N. Yorkshire ballistic/forensic service[s]. And in any case, how does it matter? Can you really see Steyr actually MAKING an air pistol at this level that does not comply with the international law?

tac

[tacfoley]

Response from Steyr-Sport UK -


In a message dated 25/04/2017 11:16:02 GMT Daylight Time, steyr.uk@talktalk.net writes:

Hi,

You are exactly correct and what we have been saying for the last 2-3 years which is how long this nonsense has been going on.

We have documents from Austria regarding the manufacture and exactly how these pistols work which have been sent along with the pistol for inspection. The pistols are nearer 4ft lb than the 6.

I am sure a gang doing a drive by shooting are going to use an Olympic air pistol costing £1500!

Kind Regards,

Helen


tac

[ChrisC]

That's good but i would like to see a response from the NY police clowns. They are an embarrassment.

[Murphy]

That's good but i would like to see a response from the NY police clowns. They are an embarrassment.

Out of curiosity does anybody know HOW this came to there attention?!

[tacfoley]

Out of curiosity does anybody know HOW this came to there attention?!

Who knows? Nobody else seems to give a hoot.

Perhaps it's the isolation, y'know......all those sheep and cheese and stuff.

tac

[mcmj]

Hi Tac,I hate to contradict you but the pistol is a firearm. The Firearms Act defines a firearm as " a lethal barreled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes any prohibited weapon etc etc "
As an ex Police Inspector, I can assure that if you robbed some one using an air pistol you would be charged with firearms offences.
It may not be a powder burner, but is a firearm!
Best regards,mcmj

[Cocksure]

Out of curiosity does anybody know HOW this came to there attention?!

Maybe someone was bored and asked a stupid question about a Steyr automatic pistol??

I read about this ages ago and don't get it...
As the OP says under 6 ft isn't ANY kind of pistol,I'd love to watch a prosecution for possesion of said pellet gun....just because the North Yorkshire filth don't like it DOES NOT make it illegal!!
Unless Yorkshires gone federal and are making up their own laws......however having your £1500 toy confiscated and kept in an airtight plastic bag, thrown in a cardboard box with other 'guns' until trial or return would be enough to prevent me buying one, let someone else fight the good fight I'm afraid as I don't want a rusty, dented, bent barrelled pistol!! The authorities can be quite viscious when you show them to be foolish!!!

[Cocksure]

Hi Tac,I hate to contradict you but the pistol is a firearm. The Firearms Act defines a firearm as " a lethal barreled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes any prohibited weapon etc etc "
As an ex Police Inspector, I can assure that if you robbed some one using an air pistol you would be charged with firearms offences.
It may not be a powder burner, but is a firearm!
Best regards,mcmj

Surely that would relate to your actions, causing fear etc, therefore has no bearing on a sub 6 ft toy
NOT being used in the commission of a crime? Ie in a club members gun box?
If you point a carrier bag with a cucumber in it and say 'I've got a gun' you will be prosecuted for robbery/ firearm, does that make the cucumber a gun? The victims fear of being shot is the measure in this instance...not the cucumber/ steyr pistol.
Re:How did this come to their attention......I wonder eh?
Less than 6ft lb renders a 'pistol' non lethaly barrelled.....and makes it conform to current air pistol legislation. Otherwise youd need an FAC, but you don't so there!! I'm off to shoot shot after shot from my replica berretta pistol, with magazine, working slide with blowback....etc..etc.

[tacfoley]

Hi Tac,I hate to contradict you but the pistol is a firearm. The Firearms Act defines a firearm as " a lethal barreled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes any prohibited weapon etc etc "
As an ex Police Inspector, I can assure that if you robbed some one using an air pistol you would be charged with firearms offences.
It may not be a powder burner, but is a firearm!
Best regards,mcmj

Well, Sir, I'm not an ex-police inspector, but I am an experienced crown witness on firearms-related offences captured on imagery with many court appearances, including the Old Bailey, to my credit.

I am therefore well aware of the penalties of using anything that either IS, or PURPORTS to be, a firearm as described in law.

However, there ARE laws which govern the nature of what is construed to be a firearm, that is to say, a device that requires the possession of a firearms certificate, on mainland UK. The laws are simple and must be as well known to you as they are to anybody else on these pages -

Air pistols up to 6ft lbs m/e are NOT classed as firearms. More than that and you must have an FAC - less and you don't.

Air rifles up to 12 ft lbs m/e are NOT classed as firearms. More than that and you must have an FAC - less and you don't.

These are absolute determining factors, not '6ft lbs or thereabouts'.

Most air pistols sold in this country [excepting NI],especially those made for the purpose of Olympic style shooting, no matter whether or not it is a single shot or, as in this case, a repeater, is made, ex-factory, to 6ft lbs or less, and is therefore outside the remit of 'firearm'.

If they were not, then everybody would require an FAC to buy any of them.

The method of introduction of the pellet to the breech is what seems to be puzzling N. Yorkshire constabulary - but no other police force on mainland UK. I stress the term 'mainland UK' because in Northern Ireland ALL paintball guns and ALL airguns over 1 Joule are classed as firearms and subject to the NI Firearms Act revisions. The Umarex Crosman style revolving magazine has been mentioned as being lawful, simply because it requires a trigger to be pulled to align the pellet with the breech. So has the 'belt'-style magazine of the newer 'SIGs' and earlier Makarov/Baikal-style pistols. The Steyr uses propellant gas to do this, but like all of my examples, still only presents the pellet to the breech of the barrel. A self-loading gun of any kind inserts the projectile into the chamber of the barrel - that is in the definition of a self-loader. It could be argued that the revolver system not only aligns the pellet with the barrel, but further pressure releases the propellant gas that fires it. One clear motion instead of the two that the Steyr needs to do the same thing.

Are ANY of these guns classed as firearms here on mainland UK?

Nope.

tac

[bighit]

For rifles producing more than 12ft.lb,a Firearms Certificate (FAC) is required. Air pistols that produce more than 6ft.lb are prohibited

how many uk shooters have an FAC air pistol?

I'm guessing none.

[Murphy]

For rifles producing more than 12ft.lb,a Firearms Certificate (FAC) is required. Air pistols that produce more than 6ft.lb are prohibited

how many uk shooters have an FAC air pistol?

I'm guessing none.

Im guessing even if you wanted one they fall under the 97 pistol ban.

[bighit]

Im guessing even if you wanted one they fall under the 97 pistol ban.

my assumption too. but I'm no expert

[Murphy]

my assumption too. but I'm no expert

But could you own one before 97 ?

I seem to remember FX made a very nice one for the Americans.

[Airsporter1st]

Well, Sir, I'm not an ex-police inspector, but I am an experienced crown witness on firearms-related offences captured on imagery with many court appearances, including the Old Bailey, to my credit.

I am therefore well aware of the penalties of using anything that either IS, or PURPORTS to be, a firearm as described in law.

However, there ARE laws which govern the nature of what is construed to be a firearm, that is to say, a device that requires the possession of a firearms certificate, on mainland UK. The laws are simple and must be as well known to you as they are to anybody else on these pages -

Air pistols up to 6ft lbs m/e are NOT classed as firearms. More than that and you must have an FAC - less and you don't.

Air rifles up to 12 ft lbs m/e are NOT classed as firearms. More than that and you must have an FAC - less and you don't.

These are absolute determining factors, not '6ft lbs or thereabouts'.

Most air pistols sold in this country [excepting NI],especially those made for the purpose of Olympic style shooting, no matter whether or not it is a single shot or, as in this case, a repeater, is made, ex-factory, to 6ft lbs or less, and is therefore outside the remit of 'firearm'.

If they were not, then everybody would require an FAC to buy any of them.

The method of introduction of the pellet to the breech is what seems to be puzzling N. Yorkshire constabulary - but no other police force on mainland UK. I stress the term 'mainland UK' because in Northern Ireland ALL paintball guns and ALL airguns over 1 Joule are classed as firearms and subject to the NI Firearms Act revisions. The Umarex Crosman style revolving magazine has been mentioned as being lawful, simply because it requires a trigger to be pulled to align the pellet with the breech. So has the 'belt'-style magazine of the newer 'SIGs' and earlier Makarov/Baikal-style pistols. The Steyr uses propellant gas to do this, but like all of my examples, still only presents the pellet to the breech of the barrel. A self-loading gun of any kind inserts the projectile into the chamber of the barrel - that is in the definition of a self-loader. It could be argued that the revolver system not only aligns the pellet with the barrel, but further pressure releases the propellant gas that fires it. One clear motion instead of the two that the Steyr needs to do the same thing.

Are ANY of these guns classed as firearms here on mainland UK?

Nope.

tac

Airguns are classed as firearms in the 1968 Firearms Act, just that sub 12 ft-lb does not require a certificate. In other words just because they do not need a FAC, does not mean they are not firearms - the poster to whom you replied (mcmj) was right.

[bighit]

But could you own one before 97 ?

I seem to remember FX made a very nice one for the Americans.

not sere be honest. I think they have always been prohibited .maybe before the 1968( not sure on the exact year) act they could have been.

only air pistols on FAC is the TAC or BAC brocock. sec5 I'm sure.