Webley service serial number

[Binners]

It's always puzzled me too!

I'd rather see a nicely refinished item than a rusty one!

I saw a Bonehill Britannia at Melbourne that was stunningly refinished, It was £1200 so I think the price was up there but I must say, It was nicer than any other i'd ever seen and I reckon the blueing was 1000% better than it would have been when it left the factory!!


John

Here is the nicest one that I have ever seen. scroll down about 10 pics

http://www.network54.com/Forum/68145...Improved+model

It now belongs to some fat bloke

[johnbaz]

Here is the nicest one that I have ever seen. scroll down about 10 pics

http://www.network54.com/Forum/68145...Improved+model

It now belongs to some fat bloke

WOWSER!!!!

Pete, That's a stunner, If it were mine i'd be taking it to bed with me in case burglars got in!!


John

[johnbaz]

Hello John,

The refinishing discussion will not doubt continue to rage on for years to come. I guess there will always be purist and non-purist collectors who have differing views on the subject. One thing they have in common though, is an appreciation of the the high build quality and sound engineering design of these older guns.

Regards

Brian

Hi Brian

I'd be torn between the nice patina and a superb refinish like Pete's Britannia, Must say though that the mile deep blueing I feel is much nicer than the patina and Wabi sabi that the gun has collected through the decades!!


John

[Troubledshooter]

Most Airgun collectors will normally go for a gun in the best possible original condition they can find, the only possible exception being if a gun is exceedingly scarce, in which case a poor condition or possibly refinished gun will be acquired until a decent original condition gun can be found.
If someone wants a particular older gun to shoot rather than add to a collection, then I see nothing wrong with a well restored gun being acquired. or a poor condition gun being acquired and then restored.
Over the years I've been asked many times about refinished guns, and I always give the above advice.
Many years ago, I had the same argument about refinished guns as PaulR's presented to me by a seller in Southampton, who had advertised a Webley Service rifle in 'superb near mint' condition. When I saw the rifle, I soon realised it had been refinished but there were numerous marks under the very shiny surface which totally ruined the finish.
When I pointed out the refinish had not been stated in his advert, and the poor preparation prior to the refinish, the seller first of all tried to claim it had been carried out by Webley, which I knew just by looking at it was a load of bollocks, and he then came out with the argument that you would not buy a rusty car but a re-sprayed car would be acceptable. I tried to point out that even a true car collector will always prefer an untouched original to a refinished one, but the average motorist would not necessarily know or even care if their car had been refinished.
I could see it was pointless carrying on the increasingly heated conversation, so bid the seller good day and walked away from the rifle.

[Josie & John]

Most Airgun collectors will normally go for a gun in the best possible original condition they can find, the only possible exception being if a gun is exceedingly scarce, in which case a poor condition or possibly refinished gun will be acquired until a decent original condition gun can be found.
If someone wants a particular older gun to shoot rather than add to a collection, then I see nothing wrong with a well restored gun being acquired. or a poor condition gun being acquired and then restored.
Over the years I've been asked many times about refinished guns, and I always give the above advice.
Many years ago, I had the same argument about refinished guns as PaulR's presented to me by a seller in Southampton, who had advertised a Webley Service rifle in 'superb near mint' condition. When I saw the rifle, I soon realised it had been refinished but there were numerous marks under the very shiny surface which totally ruined the finish.
When I pointed out the refinish had not been stated in his advert, and the poor preparation prior to the refinish, the seller first of all tried to claim it had been carried out by Webley, which I knew just by looking at it was a load of bollocks, and he then came out with the argument that you would not buy a rusty car but a re-sprayed car would be acceptable. I tried to point out that even a true car collector will always prefer an untouched original to a refinished one, but the average motorist would not necessarily know or even care if their car had been refinished.
I could see it was pointless carrying on the increasingly heated conversation, so bid the seller good day and walked away from the rifle.

I couldn't have put it better myself David. I'll add that some refinished guns I have come across were clearly never pitted or rusty to the extent a refinish could or should have been considered. I say this because the markings were clear and there was no hint of pitting underneath the glossy black (not blue) modern finish. Ironically these airguns would never have left the factory with such a gloss black finish and in my view completely ruined what had been highly desirable airguns. A refinished gun is no longer an honest old item if it is wearing a coat of modern black and loses its collectable value to a serious collector.

John

[cringe]

I couldn't have put it better myself David. I'll add that some refinished guns I have come across were clearly never pitted or rusty to the extent a refinish could or should have been considered. I say this because the markings were clear and there was no hint of pitting underneath the glossy black (not blue) modern finish. Ironically these airguns would never have left the factory with such a gloss black finish and in my view completely ruined what had been highly desirable airguns. A refinished gun is no longer an honest old item if it is wearing a coat of modern black and loses its collectable value to a serious collector.

John

Hi, All, question ? when does "patina" turn into rust? I have acquired several old air guns over the years, some of which were not shed finds, more like barn! or pond! finds [Relics]. But I have tried to restore them to as close to original condition as possible. But I hopefully have left some of the history of the previous owners. For instance I acquired a BSA light, when I was refurbishing the stock, I found a .22 pellet embedded in it! I thought what was going on in the late 1920's? I think that is history and have left it there. the gun shoots well, might be a bit heavy on the right hand side!

[Josie & John]

Hi, All, question ? when does "patina" turn into rust? I have acquired several old air guns over the years, some of which were not shed finds, more like barn! or pond! finds [Relics]. But I have tried to restore them to as close to original condition as possible. But I hopefully have left some of the history of the previous owners. For instance I acquired a BSA light, when I was refurbishing the stock, I found a .22 pellet embedded in it! I thought what was going on in the late 1920's? I think that is history and have left it there. the gun shoots well, might be a bit heavy on the right hand side!

That's an interesting question and you'll probably get lots of varying interpretation. Some say patina is a posh word for rust, whereas I tend to think of it as a worn aged finish - the kind you expect to see on a well loved and used old gun. I've bought rifles before which had a hint of surface rust but thankfully no pitting. These have come up quite well with well oiled 0000 grade wire wool and then oil soaked rag.

John

[Troubledshooter]

Hi, All, question ? when does "patina" turn into rust? I have acquired several old air guns over the years, some of which were not shed finds, more like barn! or pond! finds [Relics]. But I have tried to restore them to as close to original condition as possible. But I hopefully have left some of the history of the previous owners. For instance I acquired a BSA light, when I was refurbishing the stock, I found a .22 pellet embedded in it! I thought what was going on in the late 1920's? I think that is history and have left it there. the gun shoots well, might be a bit heavy on the right hand side!

I would suggest the question should be when does rust turn into 'patina', which is often the case if a gun has been irregularly used and not stored in a damp proof atmosphere, such as a garden shed or garage, with surface rust allowed to develop, then occasionally wiped over with an oily rag, this then leads to a brown 'patina', with the occasional oil application preventing rust getting a more substantial hold on the metal.
If a gun has been regularly used and cleaned/polished between each use, this can lead to a silver 'patina' in places, as the original finish is gradually worn away either through use or the regular cleaning process.
A typical example of this latter 'patina' is shown in a recent picture of a Mk.II Webley Service which showed clear silver patches interspersed with patches of original finish.
Normal wear 'patina' is commonplace where the original finish is gradually worn away in certain places through more hand contact, such as the end of a barrel on a break barrel rifle, and the end of an action where the gun is supported in use.