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Thread: Can I go shorter??

  1. #31
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    I'v had 2 Howas (.308) and both had the same accuracy problems after cleaning.
    After cleaning fire 4 or5 of the crappy PPU to foul barrel, wait till cool then try test strings.
    After about 20 shots give it a pull through then fouling shots before another test string.
    Worked for me.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by weebeestie View Post
    I'v had 2 Howas (.308) and both had the same accuracy problems after cleaning.
    After cleaning fire 4 or5 of the crappy PPU to foul barrel, wait till cool then try test strings.
    After about 20 shots give it a pull through then fouling shots before another test string.
    Worked for me.
    I also have 2 .308 Howas, can't say I am obsessive about cleaning them
    "Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement"
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  3. #33
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel View Post
    Ok, it was the lee neck resizer I was wondering about, but the pacesetter uses a full length resizer. I wouldn't use the crimp die unless you have a bullet with a cannelure in it. But thats just me.

    Fingers crossed the next batch will start to reduce the group size.
    Not required, it creates its own which is the point of it. IF you load to a cannelure you are stuck with a set OAL. Decent bullets dont usually have them, Sierra only produced a 77 SMK with one for the Mod 262 loads as they get used in semi automatics/automatics.

    One of the problems with neck turning is that as the brass flows forward, you lose the effect. It really only has any effect on very tight necked rifles because you can now chamber what could not be chambered.

    Seriously whether you crimp is up to you but so far I have not come across anyone who has tried it without positive results. I do it for the following reasons.

    1. It has improved consistency on all of my full bore rifles service rifles and my M67

    2. It has produced good results with a much longer jump than many would think ideal in my M67 Kongsberg (It has a very generous free bore anyway and loading to near the landes makes mag loading perilous...)

    3. If you think I am neck turning batches of 100 cases you can sod off

    Bear in mind that with service mag fed rifles you cant mess about with the COALs much if at all. I tend to grab a live round and copy that OAL then mess with the load until it works.

    If you have tried everything then get a gun plumber who knows what he is doing (there are a few) to use a bore scope and look at the first few inches of the barrel. I am just about to have my AR re barrelled after 6.5k as it is no longer holding anything like what I would want. Comment was that there is a lot of erosion which does not surprise me.

    Sometimes some barrels are just bad, harsh but true.

    Also make sure that your full size die is set up correctly. The further you push the brass back the harder you work the brass but also the more movement it gets. This can lead to inaccuracies and case head separation in short order.

    In last years Imperial I had changed Dies and thought it was right, but I was getting separated cases after 3 firings...in an AR FFS. So I checked out my rounds in a Dillon headspace gauge and it was well under, so the case was being worked to hell. I re-set at bolt action and have had smooth operation and no separations since.

    I never really understand the obsession with FL Re-sizing. I only FL resize for the AR just in case heat causes some issues (they get bloody hot even on straight pull with some practices and you cannot risk a bad feed in a rapid shoot). Neck sizing reduces the work hardening on your brass. I never did it when shooting F class and never do it for my No4 or M67, yet the rounds are perfectly accurate.

    Keep it simple, keep it consistent, then when it comes to fault finding its easier to de-bug.
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  4. #34
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    Thanks for all your inputs guys, I'm currently re-reading my Lee loading manual.

    It doesn't list N150 for a 75 grain jacketed bullet but does for a 77 grain so I'm using the load data for that.

    I'm also looking at the sizing section at the front of the manual......
    BSA Ultra .177 - Walther Terrus .177 - Marlin Model 80 .22lr - Mossberg 817 .17hmr - Howa 1500 .243 - Gunmark Kestrel 12g - Franchi 612vs 12g
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

  5. #35
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    I am guessing/hoping that you worked up a powder load at book COAL then picked the tightest group that didn't show any pressure signs and started to change the length to fine tune, or did you do a ladder test and picked a charge midway in the node group?


    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I'm using a Howa 1500 .243 RWS brass with Federal Large Rifle Primers, Vit N150 (I know 140 would be better but I haven't got any) powder and 75grn Hornady A Max.

    OK, I made a dummy round which I chambered to fit my rifle and measured at COAL of 2.7425"

    Knock off the .0005" as no-one is that good then take off a thou to clear the lands and i made 5 batches of 5 rounds at:

    2.732
    2.722
    2.712
    2.702
    2.692

    I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

    And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

    So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

    Any ideas?

    Cheers..

  6. #36
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    I took advice of here, I think it was from Tacfoley to make a dummy round which fits my rifle perfectly then the middle load for a 77 grain bullet and N150 powder.

    No signs of over pressure on the cases so far so I'll stick with the same charge for now, I'm more interested in accuracy than velocity.

    Hope that makes sense.
    BSA Ultra .177 - Walther Terrus .177 - Marlin Model 80 .22lr - Mossberg 817 .17hmr - Howa 1500 .243 - Gunmark Kestrel 12g - Franchi 612vs 12g
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

  7. #37
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    Chap if you're accuracy is that shit. With all the ammo used. I'd be looking at getting the crown redone. And a scope down the barrel to check for wear..
    BERETTA 12g 686s, ESCORT 12g semi-CAMO, 1022 ruger selling hw 60j hmr, and, Ruger 77 22 hornet. 223 howa 1500, Waiting for. 17wsm.

  8. #38
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    Chap if you're accuracy is that shit. With all the ammo used. I'd be looking at getting the crown redone. And a scope down the barrel to check for wear..
    well the OP hasn't stated what condition the rifle is in, New, Used or Abused.
    I'm pretty impressed with Howas and their accuracy so if the barrel isnt shot out then I still go back to the obsessive cleaning every test string.

    On your next day out shoooting make up 20 rounds sized 20thou of the lands. Load with the 77gr you want to stick with and fire them in batches of 4.
    As your barrel fouls and settles down your groups will get better.
    Once its proven your gun can group then start on getting a good reload. this starts with your powder load not COL

    PS, If the shot groups dont have any improvement then your guns F***ed, get a new one.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by weebeestie View Post
    well the OP hasn't stated what condition the rifle is in, New, Used or Abused.
    I'm pretty impressed with Howas and their accuracy so if the barrel isnt shot out then I still go back to the obsessive cleaning every test string.

    On your next day out shoooting make up 20 rounds sized 20thou of the lands. Load with the 77gr you want to stick with and fire them in batches of 4.
    As your barrel fouls and settles down your groups will get better.
    Once its proven your gun can group then start on getting a good reload. this starts with your powder load not COL

    PS, If the shot groups dont have any improvement then your guns F***ed, get a new one.
    By suggesting the OP load 20 thou off the lands you are taking him back to where he started, factory loads shoot ok in the rifle its his reloads where the problem lies, possibly originating in this "load as close to the lands as possible" mantra that seems to have taken hold .
    "Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement"
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  10. #40
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    Different strokes for different folks....

    Changing the charge isn't only about getting the most velocity, it's about finding the sweet spot for a powder and bullet combination that equates to the bullet leaving the bore at the optimum point in the oscillation cycle.

    IMHO changing the length fine tunes it.

    If you are stuck with changing the length to get the best accuracy your rifle can achieve you are missing out on another factor that can have a significant effect.

    A change of 0.5gn or in some cases 0.3gn can change a 2" group into a .5" group which can then be tweaked further by playing with length.

    If there is a dramatic tightening at 0.1gn difference then the powder/bullet combination is too finicky for me.

    My advice would be to stop fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

    I've had another thought....

    I set up a rifle for a guy who had bought it brand new and the shop had set it up for him.

    Regardless of how hard I tried I couldn't get any consistency from the damn thing.

    Eventually I started from scratch with the rifle set up and found the bases hadn't been fully tightened down into the receiver.

    Might be worth while checking bases/scope mounts/rings and action screws?




    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I took advice of here, I think it was from Tacfoley to make a dummy round which fits my rifle perfectly then the middle load for a 77 grain bullet and N150 powder.

    No signs of over pressure on the cases so far so I'll stick with the same charge for now, I'm more interested in accuracy than velocity.

    Hope that makes sense.
    Last edited by pothunter; 18-08-2017 at 06:01 PM.

  11. #41
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    By suggesting the OP load 20 thou off the lands you are taking him back to where he started, factory loads shoot ok in the rifle its his reloads where the problem lies, possibly originating in this "load as close to the lands as possible" mantra that seems to have taken hold .
    The OP has got it into his head that starting at the lands and then backing away untill he finds a sweet spot is the way to go. Hes had no progress with backing of thats why I said go back close to the lands.
    Hes been cleaning the barrel before each test string effectivelly turning a test group into fouling shots which will have poor to zero accuracy.

    I am guessing/hoping that you worked up a powder load at book COAL then picked the tightest group that didn't show any pressure signs and started to change the length to fine tune
    Im with pothunter here.
    Reload development starts with powder load testing and then COL for fine tuning

  12. #42
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by weebeestie View Post
    The OP has got it into his head that starting at the lands and then backing away untill he finds a sweet spot is the way to go. Hes had no progress with backing of thats why I said go back close to the lands.
    Hes been cleaning the barrel before each test string effectivelly turning a test group into fouling shots which will have poor to zero accuracy.


    Im with pothunter here.
    Reload development starts with powder load testing and then COL for fine tuning
    Yep, cos sometimes you aint going to be able to mess with COAL much in a mag fed rifle
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  13. #43
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    I've skimmed this thread, so apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick, or am repeating advice above.
    It sounds like your reloads and PPU factory shoot awful, but RWS factory shoots OK? I have never had PPU ammo shoot well in any of my rifles, and maybe your barrel doesn't like the 75gn Vmax.
    Therefore try some reloads with the same bullet as the RWS factory ammo, or same weight bullet if you can't find the exact one. Try a middle of the book load at standard SAAMI length. Subsequent fine tuning charge and COAL may bring improvements. FWIW, I have never seen significant improvements seating bullets out long near the lands for short jumps. IMO this is benchrest twiddlyness that is suited to tight match chambers, though others' mileage may vary. I would assume that your Howa chamber will be large, and to get near the lands you have seated the bullet out almost as far as it will go. This could possibly reduce concentricity and consitent neck tension. I prefer 1x cal of shank seating depth.
    Accuracy and consistency is fundamentally down to making sure your reloads are as close to identical as possible.
    Well maintained kit and consistent shooting and is taken as read, on a windless day and without heating the barrel.
    Saying thanks won't hurt

  14. #44
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    Once again thanks guys, I've got some more stuff to digest.
    BSA Ultra .177 - Walther Terrus .177 - Marlin Model 80 .22lr - Mossberg 817 .17hmr - Howa 1500 .243 - Gunmark Kestrel 12g - Franchi 612vs 12g
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

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