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  1. #1
    phil384's Avatar
    phil384 is offline Likes to eat trifle wearing scuba gear
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    Can I go shorter??

    I'm using a Howa 1500 .243 RWS brass with Federal Large Rifle Primers, Vit N150 (I know 140 would be better but I haven't got any) powder and 75grn Hornady A Max.

    OK, I made a dummy round which I chambered to fit my rifle and measured at COAL of 2.7425"

    Knock off the .0005" as no-one is that good then take off a thou to clear the lands and i made 5 batches of 5 rounds at:

    2.732
    2.722
    2.712
    2.702
    2.692

    I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

    And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

    So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

    Any ideas?

    Cheers..
    Daystate Air Ranger FAC - Kral Bullpup & NP03 - CZ 452 .22lr - Lithgow 17hmr - Remington 783 .223 - Franchi 612vs 12G - Renato Gamba 12G O/U - Hatsan Escort 12G
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I'm using a Howa 1500 .243 RWS brass with Federal Large Rifle Primers, Vit N150 (I know 140 would be better but I haven't got any) powder and 75grn Hornady A Max.

    OK, I made a dummy round which I chambered to fit my rifle and measured at COAL of 2.7425"

    Knock off the .0005" as no-one is that good then take off a thou to clear the lands and i made 5 batches of 5 rounds at:

    2.732
    2.722
    2.712
    2.702
    2.692

    I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

    And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

    So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

    Any ideas?

    Cheers..
    The chaps I shoot with using .308 have a jump of 15 -20 tho so I would think that you can go shorter. How does the factory ammo group ?
    Carry on backing off (5 thou increments) to see if you get any improvement in groups.
    ATB
    James

  3. #3
    phil384's Avatar
    phil384 is offline Likes to eat trifle wearing scuba gear
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    Ok thanks, I'll keep reducing it.
    Daystate Air Ranger FAC - Kral Bullpup & NP03 - CZ 452 .22lr - Lithgow 17hmr - Remington 783 .223 - Franchi 612vs 12G - Renato Gamba 12G O/U - Hatsan Escort 12G
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

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    Chap on here I know had a best group with 120 thou jump.

    But to save reloads, as mentioned about, I'd start going back in 20s.

    Doesn't sound like it groups well at all. Have you tried cleaning it

  5. #5
    phil384's Avatar
    phil384 is offline Likes to eat trifle wearing scuba gear
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    Yep, cleaned between each string.

    So what do you suggest for the next 5 batches?

    2.672
    2.652
    2.632
    2.612
    2.592

    ???
    Daystate Air Ranger FAC - Kral Bullpup & NP03 - CZ 452 .22lr - Lithgow 17hmr - Remington 783 .223 - Franchi 612vs 12G - Renato Gamba 12G O/U - Hatsan Escort 12G
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

  6. #6
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    Wotcher Phil

    been running the light fodder (87, 84 ,70 gn. bullets at 2.66 "- 2.67 " - no complaints, under 1 inch.

    Browning A Bolt, IMR4064 or Vit. 140.

    HTH
    Col

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    I am guessing/hoping that you worked up a powder load at book COAL then picked the tightest group that didn't show any pressure signs and started to change the length to fine tune, or did you do a ladder test and picked a charge midway in the node group?


    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I'm using a Howa 1500 .243 RWS brass with Federal Large Rifle Primers, Vit N150 (I know 140 would be better but I haven't got any) powder and 75grn Hornady A Max.

    OK, I made a dummy round which I chambered to fit my rifle and measured at COAL of 2.7425"

    Knock off the .0005" as no-one is that good then take off a thou to clear the lands and i made 5 batches of 5 rounds at:

    2.732
    2.722
    2.712
    2.702
    2.692

    I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

    And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

    So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

    Any ideas?

    Cheers..

  8. #8
    phil384's Avatar
    phil384 is offline Likes to eat trifle wearing scuba gear
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    I took advice of here, I think it was from Tacfoley to make a dummy round which fits my rifle perfectly then the middle load for a 77 grain bullet and N150 powder.

    No signs of over pressure on the cases so far so I'll stick with the same charge for now, I'm more interested in accuracy than velocity.

    Hope that makes sense.
    Daystate Air Ranger FAC - Kral Bullpup & NP03 - CZ 452 .22lr - Lithgow 17hmr - Remington 783 .223 - Franchi 612vs 12G - Renato Gamba 12G O/U - Hatsan Escort 12G
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....

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    Chap if you're accuracy is that shit. With all the ammo used. I'd be looking at getting the crown redone. And a scope down the barrel to check for wear..
    beretta dt10 ,kofs 20b, ESCORT 12g semi-CAMO, 1022 ruger Volquartsen. Cz512 tactical Barton custom. 223 howa 1500 GRS stock

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    Chap if you're accuracy is that shit. With all the ammo used. I'd be looking at getting the crown redone. And a scope down the barrel to check for wear..
    well the OP hasn't stated what condition the rifle is in, New, Used or Abused.
    I'm pretty impressed with Howas and their accuracy so if the barrel isnt shot out then I still go back to the obsessive cleaning every test string.

    On your next day out shoooting make up 20 rounds sized 20thou of the lands. Load with the 77gr you want to stick with and fire them in batches of 4.
    As your barrel fouls and settles down your groups will get better.
    Once its proven your gun can group then start on getting a good reload. this starts with your powder load not COL

    PS, If the shot groups dont have any improvement then your guns F***ed, get a new one.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by weebeestie View Post
    well the OP hasn't stated what condition the rifle is in, New, Used or Abused.
    I'm pretty impressed with Howas and their accuracy so if the barrel isnt shot out then I still go back to the obsessive cleaning every test string.

    On your next day out shoooting make up 20 rounds sized 20thou of the lands. Load with the 77gr you want to stick with and fire them in batches of 4.
    As your barrel fouls and settles down your groups will get better.
    Once its proven your gun can group then start on getting a good reload. this starts with your powder load not COL

    PS, If the shot groups dont have any improvement then your guns F***ed, get a new one.
    By suggesting the OP load 20 thou off the lands you are taking him back to where he started, factory loads shoot ok in the rifle its his reloads where the problem lies, possibly originating in this "load as close to the lands as possible" mantra that seems to have taken hold .
    You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into
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  12. #12
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    Different strokes for different folks....

    Changing the charge isn't only about getting the most velocity, it's about finding the sweet spot for a powder and bullet combination that equates to the bullet leaving the bore at the optimum point in the oscillation cycle.

    IMHO changing the length fine tunes it.

    If you are stuck with changing the length to get the best accuracy your rifle can achieve you are missing out on another factor that can have a significant effect.

    A change of 0.5gn or in some cases 0.3gn can change a 2" group into a .5" group which can then be tweaked further by playing with length.

    If there is a dramatic tightening at 0.1gn difference then the powder/bullet combination is too finicky for me.

    My advice would be to stop fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

    I've had another thought....

    I set up a rifle for a guy who had bought it brand new and the shop had set it up for him.

    Regardless of how hard I tried I couldn't get any consistency from the damn thing.

    Eventually I started from scratch with the rifle set up and found the bases hadn't been fully tightened down into the receiver.

    Might be worth while checking bases/scope mounts/rings and action screws?




    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I took advice of here, I think it was from Tacfoley to make a dummy round which fits my rifle perfectly then the middle load for a 77 grain bullet and N150 powder.

    No signs of over pressure on the cases so far so I'll stick with the same charge for now, I'm more interested in accuracy than velocity.

    Hope that makes sense.
    Last edited by pothunter; 18-08-2017 at 06:01 PM.

  13. #13
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    By suggesting the OP load 20 thou off the lands you are taking him back to where he started, factory loads shoot ok in the rifle its his reloads where the problem lies, possibly originating in this "load as close to the lands as possible" mantra that seems to have taken hold .
    The OP has got it into his head that starting at the lands and then backing away untill he finds a sweet spot is the way to go. Hes had no progress with backing of thats why I said go back close to the lands.
    Hes been cleaning the barrel before each test string effectivelly turning a test group into fouling shots which will have poor to zero accuracy.

    I am guessing/hoping that you worked up a powder load at book COAL then picked the tightest group that didn't show any pressure signs and started to change the length to fine tune
    Im with pothunter here.
    Reload development starts with powder load testing and then COL for fine tuning

  14. #14
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by weebeestie View Post
    The OP has got it into his head that starting at the lands and then backing away untill he finds a sweet spot is the way to go. Hes had no progress with backing of thats why I said go back close to the lands.
    Hes been cleaning the barrel before each test string effectivelly turning a test group into fouling shots which will have poor to zero accuracy.


    Im with pothunter here.
    Reload development starts with powder load testing and then COL for fine tuning
    Yep, cos sometimes you aint going to be able to mess with COAL much in a mag fed rifle
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

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