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Thread: Can I go shorter??

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel View Post
    You've still not said the group size with factory??
    Sorry, PPU is rubbish, again about 3" groups. RWS just over an inch.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel View Post
    I have to say I've found the complete opposite. COL has made all the difference, powder change just makes the group go in different places (within reason). Sure if you have the wrong COL then powder changes might result in a nice group, but not consistently.

    Just my 2p

    And if its raining then this and part 2 is worth watching. But skip the bits about concentricity and come back when you have 1/2 moa groups.
    my main point Andy was he was trying to run before he walked with measuring the COAL and trying to load with a short jump, if he starts at the book length and works up an accurate charge he can fine tune the accuracy by adjusting the length.
    Factory ammo isn't loaded to a suitable length for a given rifle, it is loaded to an average length, yet many people happily shoot factory ammo accurately for the whole of their career,
    most people are trying to get the maximum speed out of their ammo so are unlikely to settle for a middle of the road load, so why not start by working out the powder charge that gives you the best velocity and then work out the fine detail of the COAL once you have that ?
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    Sorry, PPU is rubbish, again about 3" groups. RWS just over an inch.
    sorry factory PPU? where was this mentioned? your original post

    I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

    And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

    So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

    Any ideas?

    I am reading this as its your reloads that are giving a 3MOA group, not factory, are the RWS factory loads using the same Amax bullet? if so why not load to the same COAL as them and try that out? that will eliminate/implicate your reloading technique as the culprit and hopefully give you a baseline from which to work out your best CAOL
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I started playing the video and noticed the first one is 2 hours long, defo a rainy day video!

    Anyone want to buy some N150 powder. It's OK for .308
    Viht list N150 for the .243 so its unlikely to be a powder problem as long as you are using their data.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
    sorry factory PPU? where was this mentioned? your original post

    I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

    And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

    So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

    Any ideas?

    I am reading this as its your reloads that are giving a 3MOA group, not factory, are the RWS factory loads using the same Amax bullet? if so why not load to the same COAL as them and try that out? that will eliminate/implicate your reloading technique as the culprit and hopefully give you a baseline from which to work out your best CAOL
    Yes, factory PPU is giving me 3" groups as are my first few batches of reloads. Factory RWS ( I just happen to have also bought RWS Brass) rounds are much better. I see what you mean, If the factory RWS is getting me close to where I want to be then use that COL as a guide.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    Yes, factory PPU is giving me 3" groups as are my first few batches of reloads. Factory RWS ( I just happen to have also bought RWS Brass) rounds are much better. I see what you mean, If the factory RWS is getting me close to where I want to be then use that COL as a guide.
    exactly and then you can try moving the bullet towards the lands to see if that tightens your groups
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  7. #22
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    I now have something to keep me out of trouble tomorrow evening

    Thanks for the advice chaps
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  8. #23
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    Phil, you don't mention what dies you are using. Did you see my comment about Lee neck sizing dies. I caught me out when I started and I know at least two others too.

    I'm not sure I'd clean the rifle between strings. Clean it before you start, fire a couple of PPU rounds just to rid of them and then don't clean till the end. Should be fine over 20+ rounds.

    Wish I was still just down the road (well, I don't really but you know what I mean) so I could help more.

    Kenny certainly has given a good starting point for the next session.

  9. #24
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    Can I go shorter

    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    Yes, factory PPU is giving me 3" groups as are my first few batches of reloads. Factory RWS ( I just happen to have also bought RWS Brass) rounds are much better. I see what you mean, If the factory RWS is getting me close to where I want to be then use that COL as a guide.
    Here is my 2 p or cents: You say that you can get 1 inch groups with RWS but not with your hand loads or PPU. This tells me that your barrel should be able to shoot accurately (RWS) but your hand load with good bullets is poor. Firstly small changes to COL might make some change to accuracy but they are not going to be great. eg. I built a 378 Weatherby Mag. but designed the reamer to "improve" it slightly reducing case taper and blowing out the venturi shoulder. But, I incorporated HALF AN INCH of freebore (Early Weatherby's had free bores up to 3/4 inch; don't know about now) and this monster shot sub inch groups with 270 grain Hornady's @ 3206 f/s (shot to shot with this load was very good but poor with another using a different primer)-but it hurt off the bench! Most if not all my accuracy problems have been related to poor bullets (your Hornady should be ok) or sub standard ignition (primer) or perhaps most likely erratic powder burn which may be related to unsuitable powder (too fast/slow). However, even if you use a fast or slow powder providing that the load burns uniformly shot to shot you still should be able to get reasonable accuracy. Therefore it is possible that your handloads are erratic in shot to shot. Have you put your reloads across the chrono? How hot are your reloads? Remember that the load data as published is pertinent to their gun and possibly not yours. If you do not know how to work up loads then perhaps reading the sticky "A good read for reloaders" would be useful. Finally, I suggest that investing in a chronograph will save you wasted ammo and even "make you cry" when you see the results. I bought my first chronograph in 1970 and could not live without one!
    Cheers

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
    what COAL does your reloading manual say for that bullet? failing that load to the same length as a similar factory round and then play with your powder charge until you are happy with the grouping, you can then mess with the COAL if you wish to see if it tightens the group.
    Viht data gives 2.638" for COAL
    Exactly what Kenneth says.

    SAMMI specs etc are arrived at for a reason and its a good starting point.

    After spending ages messing about to get my old M67 to group with the rounds just off the landes I realized that it was an old rifle and would as likely prefer not to be overly stressed so I wondered how I could change things for the better.

    Many years ago Russel Simmonds told me that often a long jump could be just as good as seating into the landes, but people just dont try it....unless they use factory ammo. Recently I developed a load that I am happy with that bunged all 5 rounds under a small orange NRA marker at 200, so its within 1MOA and fine for an oldie.

    I loaded back to the standard mag length for .308 and used the manufacturers data for the powder involved (RS52) and happy days, the only thing I did differently was to factory crimp the neck with a lee factory crimp die.

    I first found this to improve the accuracy with my 5.56 Ammo, so I tried it with my .303....same result. Seems to work well with .308 as well so worth considering for rifles where you are stuck with magazines. These dies cost peanuts for what they actually achieve.

    Lee claim it helps "Iron out" neck tension issues and allows a more uniform pressure spike. Talking to someone who knows much more about internal ballistics than me (Bradders of Bradley arms) he pointed out that a lot of theory is belted about but most of us dont know "Exactly" what is going on in there regarding compressed loads, ambient temp etc, so sensible testing si the way forward.

    Certainly for the type of shooting I do now I will not be worrying about neck turning, bullet pointing, bullet weighing etc, and COALs stay pretty well as advertised or as copied from service ammo.

    I only really mess with the powder these days, life is too short when shooting multi positional to burn barrels out testing when one gust of wind can have you pointing at the next target.

    That said a little 18" AR15 can produce surprising results if you shoot it right.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel View Post
    Phil, you don't mention what dies you are using. Did you see my comment about Lee neck sizing dies. I caught me out when I started and I know at least two others too.

    I'm not sure I'd clean the rifle between strings. Clean it before you start, fire a couple of PPU rounds just to rid of them and then don't clean till the end. Should be fine over 20+ rounds.

    Wish I was still just down the road (well, I don't really but you know what I mean) so I could help more.

    Kenny certainly has given a good starting point for the next session.
    I'm using the Lee Pacesetter dies but only the deprimer/sizer then the bullet seater, not the crimping die
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I'm using the Lee Pacesetter dies but only the deprimer/sizer then the bullet seater, not the crimping die
    use the crimp die as per the advice from Chris above before considering neck turning, you already have the kit so why not use it?
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    I'm using the Lee Pacesetter dies but only the deprimer/sizer then the bullet seater, not the crimping die
    Ok, it was the lee neck resizer I was wondering about, but the pacesetter uses a full length resizer. I wouldn't use the crimp die unless you have a bullet with a cannelure in it. But thats just me.

    Fingers crossed the next batch will start to reduce the group size.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel View Post
    Ok, it was the lee neck resizer I was wondering about, but the pacesetter uses a full length resizer. I wouldn't use the crimp die unless you have a bullet with a cannelure in it. But thats just me.

    Fingers crossed the next batch will start to reduce the group size.
    Yep full length resizing and I was advised against crimping, in fact I'm pretty sure the reloading manual says its not for my type of bullet too.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil384 View Post
    Yep full length resizing and I was advised against crimping, in fact I'm pretty sure the reloading manual says its not for my type of bullet too.
    the Lee FCD crimping die doesn't require a cannelure you can use it on any bullet.there is no need to go full-hulk on it a light crimp will achieve the purpose -a consistent neck tension. If you have perfect brass you probably don't need it however it ain't going to hurt to use it and it should help.
    It always amazes me that folk put forward neck turning as a worthwhile operation whilst ignoring the much simpler FCD die that is supplied with a lot of Lee kits.
    I guess it's too simple and also made by Lee so for some that's 2 strikes and out
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