Springers just got harder to shoot...

[cooper_dan]

Was doing a bit of pellet testing (Air arms field 8.44 vs JSB express 7.87) and decided that the more you practice, the more complex springers get.

Each test was done 3 times in groups of 5.
Initially both pellets were making ragged 10-15mm groups, both to the left of the aim point. Which is larger than I expected at 18 yards (length of my garden).
Then I remembered I had just added some weight to the butt pad, so maybe I need to adjust my hold. I moved my non-trigger hand back about 2cm. JSB's now a 5-6mm group bang on the aim point (except for one I pulled). Air arms now a 6-8mm group half a mil dot under the aim point.

Someone cleverer than me will tell me its about barrel or rifle harmonics/vibrations and different starting pressures of the pellets. All I know is that for each pellet I test in the future, I will have to test with multiple hold points. I don't think the sample packs are going to be big enough any more!

How much detail do other people go into when setting up/testing their springers?

[Shed tuner]

yeah, the balance point and where to hold the rifle defo affects things.

By adding mass to the rear, you bough the balance back, presumably making the front flip more (effectively with the rifle rotating around your front hand during the firing clcle). By moving you front hand back, there is now more mass in front of that hand, so less flippy.

obvously a lot also depends on the sate of tune; those setup for less hold sensitivity will be less affected.

[LESS THAN FORTUITOUS KENNETH]

So, would adding weight to the muzzle result in less flip, regardless of hold? Generally speaking.

[air-tech]

So, would adding weight to the muzzle result in less flip, regardless of hold? Generally speaking.

I actually tested that, taking things to quite an extreme on a Diana 52 in FAC .177 that was woefully inaccurate / very difficult to shoot straight / take your pick. It did not work either, on that gun, at least. Could have been related to the fact that the D52's barrel is actually very skinny (the visible OD is just a shroud) and viewing some vids of springer barrel flex upon discharge, there could have been a lot of that going on. Possibly at some stage a barrel weight could make things worse, but help at others. The flip itself, well the physics says that definitely there would be a reduction, but if barrel flex is exacerbated - then that's yet another variable.

[cooper_dan]

yeah, the balance point and where to hold the rifle defo affects things.

By adding mass to the rear, you bough the balance back, presumably making the front flip more (effectively with the rifle rotating around your front hand during the firing clcle). By moving you front hand back, there is now more mass in front of that hand, so less flippy.

obvously a lot also depends on the sate of tune; those setup for less hold sensitivity will be less affected.

This is probably right. Although with my previous 'flippy' guns they have shown vertical stringing. This test yesterday showed a larger hole in all directions. Like I was shooting a 22 instead of 177. When I moved my hold, the group then shrunk in all directions, this is what confused me.

I think I'm going to make some kind of lead weight that can be slid up and down the barrel. Get to a range and shoot some groups, moving it up the barrel a bit each time and see what happens at 50 yards. All fun and games!

[Muskett]

Springers, unless heavy, aren't happy shot constrained to a bench rest. Whereas a PCP is dead a springer is "alive". Its what makes them interesting. I like a springer that wants to shoot accurately; getting it to do so is the fun...frustrating, part.

[Jimny4x4]

Some days I think that even the climate can effect my springer .
Plinking at full range then other times not being able to hit the proverbial barn door ( same pellets ) .
Certainly I believe the residual heat of greases will definitely have some effect on the mechanisms willingness to work with you rather than against .
If chrono 'ing I usually try and run 10 or so pellets thru the gun first .

[Muskett]

Yeterday I was Tac Driving; today the winds up and I'm all over the place. Same rifles, same pellets, same bod behind' just not the same groups

[TonyL]

Yeterday I was Tac Driving; today the winds up and I'm all over the place. Same rifles, same pellets, same bod behind' just not the same groups

Mr Muskett, I get the feel from some of your previous posts that you are an experienced shooter of many disciplines. So, please don't you be getting anywhere near beating yourself up over this. Okay, we all have bad days (me more than many others), but unless you were particularly out of form, this will have been purely down to the wind. Especially if inconsistent and gusting in nature. And applies to the shooter being buffeted about as well as to the effect on our little pellets.

Hopefully you'll see this in the positive way it is intended and not wanting to be condescending in any way.

[TonyL]

I think I'm going to make some kind of lead weight that can be slid up and down the barrel. Get to a range and shoot some groups, moving it up the barrel a bit each time and see what happens at 50 yards. All fun and games!

Jim Tyler highlighted this very thing a few years ago in his brilliant Technical Airgun series in Airgun World. All to do with timing pellet exit with nodes and anti-nodes. Brilliant reading. And well worth having a play of your own.

Just wish I had the time.

[TonyL]

This thread highlights so many different factors making up consistently accurate springer shooting. Increasing weight (everything else remaining equal) will reduce recoil and surge. But the re-distribution of that weight can cause issues.

Okay, careful tuning (both internal and external) can reduce hold sensitivity. And just choosing different pellets will affect recoil, surge and the pellet exit timing in relation to these and also the barrel vibration.

The other night when I highlighted a mistake on one of Mr Gaylord's blog articles I, for the first time, read a few of the comments below. One of them was from a chap saying how much about shooting springers accurately is down to us, the users, getting to know your particular rifle inside-out. The analogy he used was from a chap driving the same car for years. He gets to know all its little foibles and charcteristics inside out and he can do anything with that car, as they have become "at one".

And I, and many others, have been saying it for years. Get to know your gun. Shoot it enough. Get to know every little foible and quirk. Eventually that gun becomes part of you. You instinctively know how to hold and caress it. Exactly the right amount of pressure (or lack of) at various contact points. You subconsciously know where that trigger breaks. Even when bench shooting, this will translate to where that forend is resting.....at the front, middle, straight onto a cushion, on your open palm etc etc.

Each and every gun (and pellet combination / tune etc) will be different.

I've said for many years that the best I ever shot was when I had just the one rifle when I was much younger. It was used for target practice, plinking, hunting and ratting. I shot just about every day. But even days when I didn't shoot, I'd be picking that gun up, bringing it to aim etc. That gun just became part of me and together we could do no wrong.

These days I don't get the chance to shoot anywhere near as often as I would like / ought to. And, owning many guns, I'm switching between them. Meaning that long-term symbiotic relationship will never develop like it did all those years ago. Sure, I can pick one up. And, about twenty minutes or so into a session I can really start to "click" and get that all-important feel again. But, I fear, this can never be the same or as effective as just having that one gun and that special relationship.

As that old adage goes....."Beware the man with one gun".


Excuse that bit of a tamble, chaps, but I'm sure many will know where I'm coming from.

[Muskett]

When I was young a cup of coffee would cost me a point in competition
Now I huff and puff and squint, a coffee would be the last of my worries.
That air rifle pellet sure does take a long time to get out of the barrel.

Absolutely right, knowing your rifle and becoming completely familiar with it really does get you to another level. Got to use it and shoot it. Shoot springers standing unsupported and they behave far better than when tied to a bench. Problem is shooting standing unsupported isn't easy.
I've neber understood why some people think they can just pick up a rifle and shoot it like a laser....17HMR syndrome!

[cooper_dan]

Really enjoying the feedback on this, thank you.
I completely agree with whats being said, particularly about being the 'one gun man'

In the last couple of weeks I have changed my philosophy on shooting. This is because I have decided I want to try and do well in HFT (recoilling)

- I have gone back to completely standard internals. This is on the assumption that they will be very reliable, so I will be shooting the same gun with the same parts for the foreseeable future. I had a drop in kit but it wasnt working for me
- I added the weight to the rear of the stock to bring the balance back a bit for standing shots (to make it feel a bit more like my 10m gun).
- I am going to have a play with a sliding weight on the barrel (I might have to try and find that article that has been mentioned!). I have a theory that variances in pellet batches could be minimised this way so that's what it will mainly be used for
- I have stopped using most of my other guns I'm planning on only using 2 or 3. My TX200HC for HFT, Diana 65 for bell target and Diana 66 for 10m. I might even reduce this to 2 if changing the sights back and forth between bell target and 10m doesn't cause any issues. I'll get the others out occasionally but will limit this
- All of my practice has been done in HFT positions. So all pellet testing has been done prone, holding up the peg. No bench resting for me
- I'm going to join a proper range where I can shoot paper up to 45 yards and go several times a week. Same gun, same pellets, same clothes and shoes if I have to
- Try to shoot HFT every weekend when possible

My quest to become the one gun man (kind of) has started!

[angrybear]

Was doing a bit of pellet testing (Air arms field 8.44 vs JSB express 7.87) and decided that the more you practice, the more complex springers get.

Each test was done 3 times in groups of 5.
Initially both pellets were making ragged 10-15mm groups, both to the left of the aim point. Which is larger than I expected at 18 yards (length of my garden).
Then I remembered I had just added some weight to the butt pad, so maybe I need to adjust my hold. I moved my non-trigger hand back about 2cm. JSB's now a 5-6mm group bang on the aim point (except for one I pulled). Air arms now a 6-8mm group half a mil dot under the aim point.

Someone cleverer than me will tell me its about barrel or rifle harmonics/vibrations and different starting pressures of the pellets. All I know is that for each pellet I test in the future, I will have to test with multiple hold points. I don't think the sample packs are going to be big enough any more!

How much detail do other people go into when setting up/testing their springers?

I'd think it far more likely that your hold is just a fraction more relaxed as you're back on the rifle's balance point/centre of gravity, surely no need to test different hold points with each pellet, once you find it for a given rifle that's it.

[bozzer]

I've travelled this road for many years ... and I have to tell you that it's an interesting but very frustrating one.

Here's the problem with shooting a springer in HFT ...

It's fine shooting a springer in HFT if you just want to turn up and enjoy the banter and accept that you just get what you get ... week after week ... some weeks you get a good score ... the next a pretty average one. The problem is when you start getting all pretty serious about it. I know most will say that they never get serious ... it's just for fun. I mean when you start to actually want to shoot well ... and score well ... most weeks and although you still enjoy the banter ... when you pull that trigger you want that target going down. You spend lots of days practising and you start to try and understand the springer better and start to mess about with the stock etc, and try different holds, and get really keen on getting a batch of pellets that suit that rifle.

You seem to be at least part way there.

Here's the hard news ...

Finding the perfect set up for that rifle and for you re stock shape, set up, weight, and barrel set up ( weight on end of barrel ... weight part way down the barrel ), best hold positions etc ...

... that's all fine n dandy if you plan to shoot at the range at targets at a certain height, at a certain distance, and with the terrain under you all nice and level, and your body at the same angle to that target etc.. So basically range shooting. I got to the point where, with a good batch of JSB's, I could shoot tiny groups in little wind at 45 yards all day long.

The problem with modern HFT ( well not the problem but just the way it is ) is that the courses have evolved to test the best PCP shooters. So course setters use all sort of things to make it tougher. Range traps, funny size plates/kills, uncomfortable shooting positions and angles, targets at different angles etc. So as you work your way around a decent modern HFT course your body is in all sorts of positions, you are at different angles to the targets both laterally and vertically. So not all prone shots for example will be with your hand the same height up the peg, and your body wont be in the same position. Your arms and hands won't be in the same position.

Now without upsetting the pea shooter brigade who flick pellets out of a pretty dead 2k's worth of target rifle ... I can assure you that the above is far easier with a rifle that doesn't move. As long as you can get in a position where that PCP is held steady on aim and your trigger work is decent ... you will hit HFT kills up to 45 yards ( if you can range and judge wind ). It doesn't matter that much if your body position has changed or your hold positions on the rifle have changed. Hold it steady on aim ... get the shot off well ... good follow through ... equals decent accuracy ... and POI's where you expect them to be.

A lot of the shots have some difficulty factor in them to test the very best using the very best PCP's.

Along you trot with your springer. You've set up the barrel with weights ... you've set up the stock ... you've selected a good batch of pellets ... you've spent hours at the range perfecting your body and hand positions ... and that's all gone down the S bend because you now have to contort yourself around a HFT course with hands up and down the peg ... body in all sorts of angles to the target ... low targets ... high targets. Your POI's will go all over the place. Did you miss that last one because you got the range wrong ... or the wind wrong ... or you released the trigger badly ... or did you get everything right but you missed because the POI had jumped 15mm left and low because your body and hand positions were slightly different?

Try putting paper out at the range at different ranges and different heights. Try moving your body into different angles at the same target. Try with your hand way up the peg ... then half way down ... then at the bottom. Try getting your front hand position, your elbow positions, the butt position in your shoulder and your back arch in exactly the same position for a target at ground level at 45 yards and a target up in a tree at 13 yards. Note all the changes in POI, even though you are getting the shot off as well as you can.

Oh ... and 4 out of 6 positionals are supported ... tree, fence etc ... a big help with a dead rifle ... more of a handicap with a rifle that will bounce off that support.

Whenever possible, and it's on a lot of shots, the best PCP shooters will have their front hand on the floor ( gloved ) and the butt of the rifle rested on the ground. Virtually a bench rest scenario. Get the range and wind right ... do the breathing ... squeeze through the trigger ... follow through ... good result. Some people shoot springers quite well with the butt on the floor ... it's not easy. Most have to lift the butt off the floor and into the shoulder, with the right arm up on the elbow ... that's now a far less stable hold.

I took my dogs for a walk around Cannock Chase the other day. A beautiful place and I walked ( nearly got killed ) through one of the forest areas that had a dedicated Mountain Bike Trail. Blokes on modern day mountain bikes with fancy looking suspension, gears and brakes, riding over areas with boulders sticking out of the ground, jumps over fallen logs, tight corners between trees. I was quite impressed watching these folk fly through the forest at great speed. I thought ... if this was compared to a HFT course ... these guys would be riding modern day mountain bikes ... and I'd be spending most the time falling off my Penny Farthing.

Springers and modern day HFT ... it's lots of fun but you are at a massive disadvantage.

It's simply fact ... that the way you need to shoot springers to shoot them accurately ... and the way you have to shoot a HFT course over 30 targets ... are two different things.

Good luck with it.